Author Topic: 'The Canberra Incident'?  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Silver

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« on: February 21, 2005, 10:09:47 pm »
In another thread, pym mentioned 'The Canberra Incident' and how the AC would have needed "24hrs notice" to get a Vampire in the air, in response to the incident.

What did 'The Canberra Incident' involve ?  
When did it happen ?
What was the Irish govts (and the publics) response ?
And how could the AC respond if this happened nowadays ?

Offline Frank

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2005, 10:41:52 pm »
This is the story as far as I can remember, I'm open to correction here (I could be mixing up a few stories here):

What did 'The Canberra Incident' involve & When did it happen?
An RAF Canberra buzzed Gormanston or Baldonnel sometime in the Fifties or Sixties.

What was the Irish govts (and the publics) response?
The Dail had a debate on it, don't know what the public thought, I think the Air Corps buzzed Derry airport / RAF Eglinton with Spitfires / Seafires in response and the Brits chucked a wobbly

And how could the AC respond if this happened nowadays?
The Air Corps could probably respond a bit quicker these days but we have no QRA so a response could take hours rather than minutes


Regards,

Frank.
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Offline Turkey

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2005, 11:14:59 pm »
The 'Canberra incident'
I was intending to make a detailed reply to Pyms post which mentioned this farce, but have been unable to do so as yet.
As far as I can remember, the incident in question occured in 1970 when a PR version of the canberra over flew some sites of military intrest in the Republic of Ireland.
Because the same useless tripe were in power then as now, the country had no viable air defence aircrafts, all we had were 6 trainer versions of an intrim jet fighter which was designed in 1943 and was so primative that it was not considerd first generation.
During the time of this incident,the prototypes of 4th generation jet fighters were nearing completion, aircrafts like the YF-15, YF-16, and YF-14, while we had largely out of use plywoood junkpiles which wer'ent even serious aircrafts when brand-spanking new.
Even if miserable insult known as a budget had ran to keeping the Vampires airworthy, the canbera should have used it's speed to leave them looking like twits, or simply have climbed above their meger operating height, always assuming that we could have intercepted in the first place without such a basic requirment as a active radar system.
In the unlikely event of an interception, a pair of EE lightenings would have appeard at supersonic speed, released their Sidewinders AIM-9 missles and returned to the UK for tea and crumpet leaving the 'pride' of the IAC as dust and ash in the wind.
If it were to happen to day, results would be largely the same, except that 2 Tornados would reduce the PC-9's to fluttering scrap in less time then it takes to read these few words.

To be slightly less silly about it, I have always belived that the IAC aircrafts were deliberatly held on the ground to hide just how stupid the suitation really was, as it is now: a supposedly modern country which is incapable of mounting even a token defence of itself!




Ireland, no jets, no future!

Offline Frank

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2005, 11:43:43 pm »
Hi Guys,

I'm actually getting two stories confused, sometime in the post WWII years the RAF buzzed Gormanston or Baldonnel and the Air Corps returned the favour the next day, the Canberra flyover took place a good few years later as Turkey said.


Regards,

Frank.
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Offline pym

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 09:43:42 am »
Never heard about the incident you mentioned Frank, sounds bloody hillarious

RE: The Canberra Incident - I doubt it would have come to fistycuffs, in the Dáil debates they mentioned the lack of a plane which could take off and take the Canberras registration number  '[<img'>

But the point Turkey made is perfectly valid, the Canberra wouldve just ran off. The Russians had serious difficulty (i.e. were unable to) intercepting them on Recon flights in the early 50's with Mig 15's and 17's so what hope with the two seat Vampire? Although unlike the Russian recon flights, the Canberra flew fairly low, just to add insult to injury.

I cant find any links on the web with information on how the public reacted.

All I can see is that you just have to read between the lines:

It was 1971, the so called "troubles" which wound up leaving 3000 people dead had been breaking out for at least the last two years. The idea that any pilot in the RAF didnt realise that 10 minutes West or South would lead him into the Republic is a joke.

If any press folks are reading, you should try find out who the pilot was and ask him about it, good luck. '<img'>

Heres the Debate in the Dáil: http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0257/D.0257.197112010005.html

If the RAF ever got sick of providing air cover here and wanted to stir up the debate, or they just wanted a laugh, they should really fly a Canberra over us again. They still have some in service, fine Aircraft:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/canberra.html

Just one comedic Dáil episode relating to Defence Forces:
http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0235/D.0235.196806260029.html

This one touches on the SAS incursion and RAF recce missions on the border:
http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0290/D.0290.197605130032.html

Anyway as i've said before, dig around the Dáil debates, you're sure to find some gold.





Offline pym

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 09:53:29 am »
Sorry, here's another debate in relation to the Canberra:
http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0257/D.0257.197112020082.html

It states in it that a Vampire couldve been serviced within an hour. So I must have heard wrong. But point stands.

It appears a few bits of the debate have either been edited out or simply could not be recorded due to the usual case of 20 TD's shouting at one time during debates.

Also heres one referring to the delay in Delivery of Fouga Magisters, due to production difficulties (I thought most/all were secondhand). But the most amusing thing is the constant use of "Fighter Squadron". Was that still its name in 1975?

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0277/D.0277.197501280019.html





Offline Buran

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 01:46:44 pm »
I checked the debates myself at the time when pym mentioned them in the other thread (thanks pym), so im trying to find the debates i found at the time.
I know they mentioned the canberra flew around Mount Oriel which was an important military comunications tower. (remember the recent released UK documents that confirm that they had a plan to invade the 26 counties if necessary, and we had a plan to invade them too)

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0257/D.0257.197112150039.html

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0265/D.0265.197305020072.html

these are pretty long so do a text search for canberra

Offline RMR

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2005, 03:06:46 pm »
A shame to think that 4 or 5 of the other vamps would have had to have been stripped to equip 1 to get airborne within 24-hours!! Would'nt it have been nice to scramble one or two in quick time,get up and show the canberra some nose guns or give him the finger!!!!! ':p'

Offline John K

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 08:05:32 pm »
Jeez! are you lot paranoid! Turkey, the Lightning had a pair of 'Red Top' missiles, not AIM9s. Yes, Pym, it was still 'Fighter Squadron' when I was there in '78-80! with top of the range Fouga Magisters! Why would anything from over here need to overfly any secret military installations in the Republic these days? (aren't there enough satellites up there) Don't forget around the time of the Canberra flight Haughey was supplying an Irish Army officer to the IRA for training purposes-as well as some hardware, so I figure the British Govt. were well advised to keep tabs on their 'friendly' neighbour! Yeah relations were at a serious low around that time, hopefully we've moved on since then.

Offline Silver

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2005, 06:53:41 pm »
I've never heard about Haughey "supplying an Irish Army officer to the IRA" '<img'>

Offline FiannaFail

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2005, 10:17:55 pm »
Just more lies about Haughey I am sure Silver!!
FiannaFail '<img'>
Patricia Guerin

Offline GoneToTheCanner

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2005, 10:29:52 pm »
hello all
Fact: Provos did recieve arms training from the Irish Army when the Border Crisis occurred.In case you've forgotten, Haughey's name is inextricably linked with the Arms Trial.
fact: Incursions have happened continuously, from both sides and continue to this day.In virtually all cases, the error is soon realised and the offenders scuttle rapidly back to their on side. I saw a British Army Gazelle in the South as recently as last August.
I heard of the Canberra incident in my time in the Don.I also heard of the alleged "retaliation", with Vampires making runs North of the Border.All bluster, really, given the Air Corps' inability to intercept high-altitude intruders(or low,fast ones,too) but,I suppose, a token effort had to be made.
I also remember the story of the IRA threatening to fire on the Alouettes if they started to sniff too closely to the South Armagh border.
Any time the RAF or Army came into the Don, they were always a pleasure to talk to, open to chat about their aircraft and always delighted to visit the place. They held the Air Corps in high regard and we returned the sentiment, given how often they risked their necks saving mariners in our "patch".
regards
GTTC

Offline FMolloy

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2005, 07:44:51 pm »
Quote (Silver @ 24 Feb. 2005,09:53)
I've never heard about Haughey "supplying an Irish Army officer to the IRA" '<img'>

He's either talking about Capt. James Kelly, the Army int. officer who arranged the arms shipments for the Official IRA, or the army team that trained OIRA in Donegal.
D'oh!

Offline Silver

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2005, 08:09:13 pm »
Quote (FMolloy @ 26 Feb. 2005,10:44)
Quote from:
.......or the army team that trained OIRA in Donegal.


Can you elaborate ??
Haven't heard about that before ?

It would be interesting to know if the Vampires actually did do a 'run' north of the border ?
(I know it would have just been 'bluster' but still - I wonder if it actully happened?)
'<img'>

Offline FiannaFail

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'The Canberra Incident'?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2005, 09:07:11 pm »
Yes that was true.  The FCA trained Official IRA members in the early seventies at Fort Dunree in Buncrana.  It is well documented at the time.  In fact Martin McGuinness was in the Official IRA at the time before he moved over to the Provisionals in Derry.  This is even recorded in the recent Bloody Subnday Inquiry!
FiannaFail ':cool:'
Patricia Guerin