Author Topic: Ireland's air defence -  (Read 1107 times)

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Offline Silver

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Ireland's air defence -
« on: October 11, 2004, 08:37:35 am »
The recent incidents of bomb threats to passenger airliners, and the subsequent escorting of these airliners by military jets, once again highlights our lack of air defences.

Is it going to take a major disaster before we have proper, organised air defence in place ?!

It has also been stated that the RAF have 2 x F3's on standby at RAF Collingsby (?) for the task of intercepting terrorist threats over the Republic.
RAF jets have also carried out familarisation flights over the Republic in recent times, with the discreet consent of our government.

We all know that the Air Corps has more pressing aircraft requirments, but this issue needs to be dealt with - and the sooner the better !


So, what are our options ?

- Continue with the current situation of letting the RAF quietly defend our airspace ?

- Acknowledge that the RAF do the job, and pay the costs of these two jets to continue in this role ?

- Come to an agreement with the RAF to train Air Corps pilots on their jets to perform the task ?

- Buy our own secondhand air defence jets (e.g. F5's) ?

- Lease new Gripen fighter jets (like the Austrian's?) ?

Offline Silver

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2004, 08:43:26 am »
It was also stated in a newspaper recently that the PC-9's could intercept a jet, which they could, in theory, if conditions were right.

Another poster here suggested that 2 x PC-9's be stationed at shannon airport for just such incidents. Which is a good idea, in theory.

However, the PC-9's have not yet been fully equipped with their weapons systems - so it would fall to the less capable Marchetti's to perform in such a role.

Offline matt_k

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2004, 09:22:34 am »
Lets be realistic... The current Irish Government are not going to fund the purchase or lease and upkeep of fast jets. However, I completely agree with you Silver, something has should be done, but I think it will continue to be the RAF that protects our airspace for the forseable future..

As for the PC-9's, could they really match the likes of a Mig-29??

Offline Silver

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2004, 09:49:25 am »
matt_k,

I meant "jet airliner".





Offline 202

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2004, 10:42:20 am »
Before we get sucked into a discussion on hardware with wings, what precisely is the tactical utility of escorting a jet plane with a bomb on board other than given moral support to a crew undere pressure?

If the target of the bomb is the aircraft itself , inflight or on the ground, no amount of escort power is going to help.

If on the other hand this is part of a threat to direct an aircraft towards a key installation or city centre well then conceivably an escorting aircraft could attempt to take it down before its intended target but the collateral potential is horrendous: eg. aicraft with suspected bomb on board shot down over Leinster, debris falls on school, dozens killed ...

Who makes that call? What level of verification would be required to ensure that this was not some kind of hoax or mistake? How do you assess which is the lesser of two evils -- allow the aircraft to continue or shoot it down with (unless you are over the sea) unpredictable consequences as to where debris might fall (and even then be absolutely certain that the deaths of those on board could not have been avoided) and all of this happening in the context of aircraft swallowing up ground at the rate of 500mph?

So back to the original question ... can a pair of fighter aircraft do anything except be chase planes for the episode ...

Fouga

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2004, 12:07:04 pm »
that is an interesting point 202 but there is also the fact that we are a soverign state and should have the means to defend ourselves and not rely on others to do it for us.

Offline pym

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2004, 03:23:04 pm »
Fighter aircraft give moral support to the crew? Excuse me? "Hi - if you stray off the co-ordinates we give you - we're going to turn you into a grease spot" ... ala the Israeli Air Force... maybe it was sarcasm...  '<img'>

Anyway - you raise some good points, specificially - who makes the call... But while we continue to lack the means by which to intercept and the RAF are the ones patrolling our air space, then the decisions only going to become more complicated. Who makes the call, the RAF pilots / the Minister for Defence / the UK MoD / the Taoiseach?... All of this happening while the Aircrafts steaming East at 500mph... Who wants to shoot down an airliner? The potential ramifications as you again state could be massive...  which will again lead to delays... and potentially bigger disaster

I think this notion amongst Journos and members of the public that the PC-9's are able to defend our airspace against anything other than Cessna 172's needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency. Who will vector PC-9s to an airliner that has switched off it's transponder? Has any of this even been considered by the Air Corps - specifically have a number of the aircraft been tasked with air defence? Because as far as I know theyre all assigned to the training wing. I've yet to hear of 2 armed PC-9's on 10 minute alert - the notion itself is laughable...

Offline IAS

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2004, 03:58:23 pm »
Pym, I think you answer your own question, there is no way on earth the PC9s should be thought of as intercepter aircraft!

IAS

Offline futurepilot

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2004, 04:23:01 pm »
Quote (pym @ 11 Oct. 2004,15:23)
Has any of this even been considered by the Air Corps - specifically have a number of the aircraft been tasked with air defence?

At the time of the Bush visit, several were staioned down in Shannon and were called in on at least one occasion to escort a light aircraft(i think a 172 but can`t remember) who got too close away from where the President was staying. They escorted the aircraft until it landed.
With regard to intercepting airliners, anyone who has seen hawks or other small jets in action and has seen the PC9s will testify that there is no comparison at all. The PC9s would be able to keep up with turboprop aircraft such as the Aer Arann planes but its unreasonable to expect them to intercept jets.

Fouga

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2004, 07:37:37 pm »
it was a 172 out of EICM he was outside the perimeter and the PC-9's werent armed.

Offline Joey d

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2004, 10:09:40 pm »
Did anyone else read the article in Ireland on Sunday last? Written by Tom Prendeville, titled "What a disaster". Its basically an article of how unprepared Ireland is, in the event of different types of attacks.

Some paragraphs that might be of interest to this thread!

...in the event of any sort of air attack, we have not got one air-worthy fighter jet and we would have to rely on outdated ground-to-air missiles - or unbelievably, an officer brandishing a service revolver from the open door of a surveillance helicopter...

...Hard as it is to believe, the Air Corps aerodromes at Baldonnel and Gormanstown have no aircraft with an on-board armaments

...'We have no facilities at all to sramble jets. None of our fleet of seven trainer jets, two fishery patrol craft and eight helicopters have missile defences on board machine guns of any kind' admitted John Nolan, a Department of Defence.

...The only anti-aircraft weapons system the army has in its possession is the sophosticated L70 ground-to-air missile system. It is more suited, however, to protecting static poisitions from potential air attack...

...On that, the defence forces source added: 'If the worse came to the worst, the luckless citizens of our east coast would have to rely on an armed officer on board a Garda Squirrel sureveillance helicopter brandishing his service revolver and firing at a rouge 747 jet hurtling across the open sky at 500 miles an hour. Its the ultimate Bruce Willis scnario but, outlandish as it seems thats what it amounts to. Our only tangible defence is the RAF intercepting the aircraft in time or a British-based ground missile battery hitting the target'

Offline Silver

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2004, 08:01:45 am »
Ha ha ha ha ........... '<img'>

I used to joke with friends at work that the AC could only defend our airspace by firing a shotgun out through the door of a helicopter.

It seems that this may not be far off the truth !  


(What must foreign readers of this board think ?)

Fouga

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2004, 01:15:00 pm »
Im guessing they are not thinking but laughing......

Offline futurepilot

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2004, 03:33:17 pm »
It really annoys me when journalists give out that òur defence forces are inadequate to defend against a certain threat because the same journalists will turn around and give out if the government spends half a billion Euro plus on fighter jets.

Offline Imshi-Yallah

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Ireland's air defence -
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2004, 06:37:23 pm »
Theres an article about the inadequacy of the defence budget around this time every year, after that they give up caring...look up the Unison archives if you dont believe me.
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