Author Topic: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.  (Read 3165 times)

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Offline Lootenant Pigeon

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Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« on: March 10, 2010, 01:52:14 am »
So Here it is. After some delay, as youll see I have been researching. I intend initially to say WHY we should have jets and then WHAT we should have and HOW much they cost. When I see what your responses are I will then post HOW we can get them and afford them.

Why We Need Jets

First of all the PC-9s are fine planes and they are good to have as lead-in trainers. Keep them. However they arent jet interceptors. I will not insult everyones intelligence by telling you why we need jets although I am AMAZED that some on here think we dont. If you havnt worked it out by now you never will. Briefly there are at least 3 defence based scenarios why we need jets.

1. A hijacked airliner heading for the centre of Dublin, Knock, Baldonnell, wherever, on a suicide mission.
2. A possible Civil War scenario in the North, which can happen ANY time. Dont let the Peace Process fool you.
3. Attack by foregn forces, unlikely, but not impossible.

However one of the main reasons we need interceptors is NOTHING to do with defence. Its to do with holding our heads up and being taken seriously. I dont believe that any modern first world country with an air arm can call itself an air arm with no jets. Its a matter of NATIONAL PRIDE. Its a joke frankly. A bad joke at that. This is not to denigrate the IAC but rather our various governments who have presided over this situation and who have allowed this to happen for years. You can add a few more reasons to have jets if you want.

What Jets We Should Buy

So having established that we REQUIRE jets what next ? Of course the first cry is theres no money. Incredibly some of the people on this board actually swallow that. What UTTER rubbish ! Of course theres money and we CAN afford it,as I will prove in my next post. Yes, ok, we arnt going to be buying 25 Saab Gripens or 15 F-16s BUT, we can still get very good, up to date, interceptors at a very reasonable price. Two spring immediately to mind, the British BAE Hawk and the not dissimilar Aero Vochodny ALCA 159 from the Czechs.

I believe that both these aircraft were looked at as possible IAC replacements. As a matter of interest the South Koreans are selling 17 used Hawks for £41 million. Crazy stuff eh ? But it gets better. I say we get between 6 and 8 Czech ALCAs and heres why.

ALCA means Advanced Light Combat Aircraft. Heres what it can do. Nearly 600 mph at sea level. Full HUD and radar capacity. Can use Sidewinders, Mavericks or ANY other NATO ordinance. Basically its EXACTLY what we need. Now pin your ears back because what Im about to say is true.

The IAC can get 6 ALCA 159s to include Simulators. Spares. Technical Equipment. Full Pilot and Tech Training and some ordinace for the princely sum of ?

$58,000,000 Or thats
£37,000,000 Or thats
42,000,000 Euros.  ********

Sorta makes some other deals seem not so good eh ? Now a MERE 42,000,000 Euros spread over 10 years is just 4.2 million a year. Frankly if this State cant afford that we should shut up shop right now. Yes, we know it will cost a bit more than that with fuel etc and weapons but we already spend money on fuel and weapons so whats a few million extra ? Thats it. We can have jets. Get on with it. Now if people still think we cant afford that I actually have another idea for where to get the necessary 42 million. I will post that after I see some replies.

******** How do I know this ? Because Aero Vochodny just did this exact deal for the Bolivian Air Force. They might even throw in an extra plane if we send them some Guiness. Cheers.

PPS. People should wake up in Ireland. This is the ONE state in western Europe that actually DOES need jets. We live on the most politically and militarily UNSTABLE island / country in Europe outside of the Balkans. You need to look ahead at what MIGHT happen in the next 10 to 15 years, not what the situation is now. BTW the situation now isnt that good either, contrary to popular belief.

Over but not out !  :airforce_wink:
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 02:59:30 am by Lootenant Pigeon »

Offline huge_dave

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 10:01:20 am »
To be honest, I do agree with you here. Although, i do not think we are under any immediate threat to get jets, we should still have them.

I also think that the few million you estimated for feulling etc. might turn into a bit more as you will need more pilots, engineers, mechanics etc etc i.e. everything that keeps it all running smoothly.

Just my view on the point guys  :airforce_wink:

Dave

Offline Lootenant Pigeon

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 10:46:43 am »

Cheers Dave,

Yes, I know we will need extra pilots, engineers and support etc but thats all good for the IAC and the country, more high tech jobs etc. Lets face it we dont have to fly all the jets all the time or anything. It couldnt be much more than an extra 2 or 3 Million a year could it ? Just scale back the PC-9 sorties a bit and even it all out. Im sure the IAC High Command could sort that out in their sleep.

Paul.

Offline huge_dave

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 12:47:31 pm »
Yes it would be great for the country. Also, it would be great if an aircraft making company decided to situate itself in ireland. This would make even more jobs, plus, it might get more people in ireland interested in planes. The more interest in planes will mean a further interest in the IAC and that could sway the govenments decision to open funds for these jets and IAC positions.

Just hypothetical speaking of course  :tounge:

Dave  :ireland:

Offline Lootenant Pigeon

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 07:00:52 pm »

I find it a little extraordinary that none of our regulars on here have yet seen fit to comment on what Ive written here. :airforce_rolleyes: I wonder why ? Or are yous just waiting to hear how I would propose to raise the 42,000,000 EUROS for the Jets ?

Offline Baldonnel-boy

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 08:05:56 pm »
OK heres how i see it.... Firstly all this talk about should we have jets or not is a complete wast of time and effort as at the moment this country cant afford to pay its civil servants, can you imagine the riots that would insue when its announced that the goverment has decided to follow your advice and buy jet aircraft  :fryingpan:
Then there the reasons you want us to have jets for....
Quote
1. A hijacked airliner heading for the centre of Dublin, Knock, Baldonnell, wherever, on a suicide mission.
Are you going to have a couple of your jets permently orbiting each of these targets??  If not there isnt a chance one would intercept a airliner as the reaction time would be too slow.... :stirthepot:
Quote
2. A possible Civil War scenario in the North, which can happen ANY time. Dont let the Peace Process fool you.
So you would spend €42 mil on a few jets so that you could send them up against the RAF Typhoon force?? 
Thats money well spent..isnt it... :thumbsup:

Quote
3. Attack by foregn forces, unlikely, but not impossible.
Im fairly sure that any foregn force that could mount a invasion of these shores wouldnt be put off by a force of 6 jets... :banghead:

And as for the other 500 reason that i can think of that we cant afford or need jets i just cant be bothered as you dont seem to living on the same planet as the rest of us..... :upside:

Offline Gnat

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 09:11:44 pm »

I find it a little extraordinary that none of our regulars on here have yet seen fit to comment on what Ive written here. :airforce_rolleyes: I wonder why ? Or are yous just waiting to hear how I would propose to raise the 42,000,000 EUROS for the Jets ?

I will try and reply when I stop laughing and rolling around the floor.........42 million jeez.....recession....ever heard of it? :rotfl: :banghead: :duh:
Gnat
(I sting)

Offline Joe McDermott

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 10:25:57 pm »

I find it a little extraordinary that none of our regulars on here have yet seen fit to comment on what Ive written here. :airforce_rolleyes: I wonder why ? Or are yous just waiting to hear how I would propose to raise the 42,000,000 EUROS for the Jets ?

Excellent stuff LP, keep taking the tablets old boy, I'm with Gnat on this. Really love the bit that suggests we need jets to ward off our northern neighbours should civil war break out. Very glad we all waited with baited breadth for this. BTW, while the Czech L-159 is an excellent piece of kit for the money, it just aint going to catch a hijacked airliner unless the bold guys send an email the day before ! Nothing short of an F-16 / MiG-29 class interceptor, sitting on the pan with to motor running will catch an airliner that already has altitude & on the edge of out FIR ! You're going to need a bigger budget.

Now, as one of the regulars I have seen fit to comment, but only because you asked so nicely.   :rotfl:

Offline Fouga23

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 11:23:54 am »
I think the IAC should get X-wing fighters :buttrock:
Belgian Air Force Fouga Magister
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Offline corsair

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 04:14:03 pm »
Actually my friend you are right on one thing. The L59s would make sense for the Air Corps assuming for one minute we actually needed them any more than we need the PC9s. In actual fact you will be pleased to learn the Air Corps actually seriously considered that very type after 9/11.  They are indeed very favourably priced.  They are affordable even for Ireland.

But as I mentioned before on this forum. The whole idea was quietly shelved because of one huge flaw which you haven't considered.  We have no military radar system in place. Without it even Typhoons would be useless. The cost, I was told by an ex Air Corps officer was estimated at £200m  in 2001, that's pounds not Euro. So the aircraft are affordable but the system is not.
So total cost €296m at least.

Then of course there's operating costs.

It's non runner financially. As for other reasons, 'national pride' well what a laugh. There is no national pride in this country. It's all about the town, the county. Cork versus Limerick versus Dublin. We're all me-feiners. Real patriotism  doesn't exist in this country.


None of your scenarios are remotely plausible either, I'm afraid. We simply do not need air defence even if we could afford it. We barely need the Air Corps as it's established right now. Most of it's roles are more civilian than military.

Sorry that's just the way it is.

Offline heligaz

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 07:38:02 pm »
Such a great idea talking about this country getting jet fighters in a recession, maybe you should have posted this 7 years earlier  :duh: You'll find that jet fighters are more expensive to run especially when the afterburner is turned on to intercept any foreign invaders  :rotfl:
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:01:17 pm by heligaz »

Offline Stanly

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 07:58:04 pm »
What happens if an invader arrives when the jets are refuelling, or like if there's an incident over Donegal and one over Cork at the same time - maybe we need a tanker as well....... :yikes:

Offline papa 242

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 02:59:12 pm »
Please give up this ridiculous discussion!!! this country cannot afford emergency ambulances at the moment, never mind jet ... trainers/interceptor/ground attack/anything!!!
If you want somebody to buy jet anything...ask the bigwigs who legged it with the proceeds of the so called "Celtic Tiger" !!!!!
Don't bother the people who "forgot" to pay 1300 defence force officers last month!!! :duh:
If somebody wanted to "invade us" right now...we should welcome them with open arms!!....could'nt be worse than the numpties running the asylum at this time,or in the foreseeable future!!! :yikes:
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:32:38 pm by papa 242 »

Offline Paul McA

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 08:24:37 pm »
The L-159 is indeed a very capable aircraft and good value to buy and operate-that`s about the only sensible thing I can see in your post.

"2. A possible Civil War scenario in the North, which can happen ANY time. Dont let the Peace Process fool you"

The above comment is ridiclous and insulting.

The NI Peace Process is deeply flawed but the idea of a Civil War is utter nonsense.

Offline CK

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Re: Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2010, 12:26:04 am »
they are at agreat price but the reasons just dont justify it. Hi jacked airliner? Civil war in the North? and who in their right mind would invade us an island off an island.