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Main Message Boards => Aviation Waffle => Topic started by: Jetman on January 19, 2012, 01:30:17 pm
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Hello all. Ive been reading the forum for a while and just joined yesterday. Im Irish and immensely proud of the Air Corps. Im a mad aircraft buff but my expertise extends to 1/72 scale models only. I have a few questions on different things but the first one is about the PC9s. Great looking wee plane it is. Forgive me if Im 8 years late for the party and these things have maybe been asked before.
The most obvious point is that the PC9s are props and theres no jets anymore since the Fougas. Bearing in mind that the PC9s were bought at a time when the Celtic Tiger was still able to roar a bit I wondered why no jets ? Is it true that there were Czech L159s in the frame for more or less the same prices / package ? Maybe theres some old threads about it all but I cant find them. Great site too BTW and brilliant pictures. well done all !
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The Air Corps did evaluate an L-139 in 2000 (it was present at the Airshow that year, LSS badge and all!)
Not sure of the politics but there where some heated phonecalls made on the ramp by the Aero representatives to whoever ?
Air Corps pilots flew the jet throughout the weekend.
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Cheers Mach, I didnt know that, mind you theres a lot I dont know. As a jetfreak its a pity they never got them. How long are we " stuck " with the PC9s then ? Another 10 years ? I wonder will jets be considered in the next ( no doubt far off ) aircraft procurement round ?
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Welcome to the forum!
Most air forces have moved away from jets for intermediate training (which is realistically as far as Air Corps pilots go from a military point of view). Turbo-props are much cheaper to run. Don't forget the 8 PC9s and the back-up package cost about 60m, which is an enormous sum of money for a country which doesn't possess anything which graduate pilots can move on to (in military terms). The 6 Fougas cost less then 2m in the mid 70's. So, no jets ever again unless there is a massive shift in the political mindset towards providing a serious defence forces. That's just the way it is!
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Cheers Tempest. I can sort of see the sense in that argument. Pity tho. Is there really that big a difference in fuel terms in flying say a 159 versus a PC9 ? If so whats the difference. Surely one can argue if a country can afffors to bu planes then they can afford to put juice in them ?
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Still waiting for an answer on this one men.
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Sorry mate dunno what you mean. Just asked a question, could maybe find it out on google but thought I would ask you lads.
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PC9's are cheaper to operate of course, there just is not the money there, can't you see that we are all being screwed? The Air Corps dont hold the purse strings its the bean counters in Kildare St.
Gnat
(I sting)
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Hi Jetman,
I see you are new to this forum. Generally you will find on most forums, the forum is only as good as the people who contribute to it. As for this one, you will find the standard is very high with well informed and interesting contributes who are always willing to help when and if they can.
So just be a little patient, someone will I hope get back if they can.
Enjoy.
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Ascot has it right. I would add, though, that when an issue (such as why the Air Corps does not acquire combat jets) has been "done to death" in recent years on this and other forums, it is less likely that you will attract contributions. :stirthepot:
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Sorry lads. I did say I wasnt an expert. Thanks for your answers thus far. The only thing I know about fuel is putting it in the car. Which aint that cheap. So for arguments sake ( and I reiterate that Im no expert ) if its £40 to run a PC9 for 5 minutes is it £80 to run a jet ? Or is it £60. Just wondering like. Cheers men. Ul probaly laff at this cos I havnt a clue meself.
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Hi Jetman, welcom tyo the forum. I'm no expert either but I believe the L139 would have a fuel burn in excess of 50% greater than the PC-9M.
If memory serves me part of the consideration by DoD on the L139 was the offset issue. The version of the L139 offered was fitted with Allied Signals avionics, some of which were made in Ireland, at their Waterford plant at the time. I think Allied Signals closed that plant in 2001.
Photo: The Heavy Metal Aerobatic Display Team, 5 4-39, Wings Over Houston 2011, Ellington Field.
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Thanks Joe. Well that would make a difference allright. But at the same time, if a country can buy planes of any type then surely they can fuel them ? Not much point me buying a car if I cant put the petrol in etc. I spose what Im saying is buy jets. Chripes we are a COUNTRY ! Fuel should not be a consideration at all. Thats about it really, I dont buy the fuel deficit argument. I really dont. And I know its not the fault of the IAC, these people are heroes. The govt of the ROI has sucked for years and it still does.
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Thanks Joe. Well that would make a difference allright. But at the same time, if a country can buy planes of any type then surely they can fuel them ? Not much point me buying a car if I cant put the petrol in etc. I spose what Im saying is buy jets. Chripes we are a COUNTRY ! Fuel should not be a consideration at all. Thats about it really, I dont buy the fuel deficit argument. I really dont. And I know its not the fault of the IAC, these people are heroes. The govt of the ROI has sucked for years and it still does.
This is an aviation forum, not a political one. However the term "ROI" is not correct. The official English language name of the State is "Ireland".
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Just reading all this and just want to point out a few things.
The L139 pilot was complaining to the organisers of that airshow, as he had been promised a display slot on the Sunday, travelled to Ireland from Spain at his own expense, only to have his slot cancelled and allocated to something else on the Sunday at very short notice, despite having been allowed to practice his routine on the Friday and Saturday, also at his own expense. He was killed a few months later in a crash at another airshow.
The L139, SIAI Marchetti S211, second hand Alpha jets, Aer Macchi jet trainer (can't think of the model number at the moment, 336 maybe?) were all considered as a Fouga replacement, but nothing came of it as we all know.
The PC9 was bought after the Tucano, PZL, Texan II were also looked at to replace the SF260 and Fouga.
The PC9 has its controls rigged to give a jet-like performance at higher speed ranges, using it's TAD system. The 950 SHP PT6 has plenty of grunt for an airframe its size, and as said earlier on is economical in fuel burn compared to true jets.
How much fuel does it burn, if you fly around at max cruise or carry around four full gun/rocket pods, it'll suck fuel and empty the tanks in just over an hour, or you can go easy and just doddle around and the fuel will last 4 and a half hours. With a full load of 516 litres of Jet A1 you can work out yourself the cost of fuel.
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This is an aviation forum, not a political one. However the term "ROI" is not correct. The official English language name of the State is "Ireland".
Evening all, Short finals is correct we are not political. I would like to see people using the correct terminology as pointed out by Sf ie ROI, or other terms such as Eire, Southern Ireland, and none of this text speak please otherwise I am gone. Any takers?
Tony K
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This is an aviation forum, not a political one. However the term "ROI" is not correct. The official English language name of the State is "Ireland".
Evening all, Short finals is correct we are not political. I would like to see people using the correct terminology as pointed out by Sf ie ROI, or other terms such as Eire, Southern Ireland, and none of this text speak please otherwise I am gone. Any takers?
Tony K
Here, here !
Suspect Jetman only getting used to Forum so maybe we'll cut a little slack. Lots of info coming in answer to his questions, nice answer Claudel, lots of top notch gen.
Joe
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One concurs with Sierra Fox, Tony and Joe. Welcome on board Jetman - look forward to more posts. :thumbsup:
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Thanks Joe.
Just to put things in perspective, PILATUS has compared the performance of the PC9M as outperforming a Hawk at low level, and in the right hands can match a Hawk at medium level, (they did this comparison with Swiss Air Force Hawks before the Swiss retired them.
The Austrians, Croatians and Slovenians use their PC7's and PC9's for air interception, the same as we did during the visit of the Queen and President Obama (which surprised a lot of people at the time as to how effective the PC9 was)
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That's not strictly true Claudel, there is a big difference between 'point defence' and 'interception'. Let's not deceive ourselves, we have no military radar and the PC9 has no radar, so no 'interception' capability. The Swiss comparison does not hold up for Ireland. Ireland has, in effect, never had an 'interception' capability. Even 9-5 :airforce_wink:
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Tempest You are right, the PC9 does not have radar. The mil radar in the Don is purely for ATC. However the ADR's put their ground radar's into use for the two visits, with Air Corps officers calling the intercepts, which actually worked.
These assets were proved in a number of exercises before the visits.
The PC9s put a CAP in place while the guests were in transit, and did carry out a number of intercepts during the days they were here.
As for the Swiss comparison, it was only the PC9's performance in respect to that of a Hawk.
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Well is it safe to come back on to the forum? Now all the shouting and screaming is over!
Right ,on a lighter note, with all this chat of Air Corps Jets, it’s now 30 years to the month since I had my first close look at the Air Corps Fouga’s (or should that be ‘Free State Air force’, only joking ). Anyway a few photos of my close encounter. Just on a technical note, I only had one step up from a box Browne in them far off days.
(Think we should put the phrase ‘Hello Folks’ to bed now)
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Great pictures Ascot 1960.... :bowdown:
Regards aw139 :ireland:
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Claudel, yes was aware of the ops during those visits, and while I acknowledge the usefulness of syncing with ADR assets in mounting a point defence of some practical value against low speed, low level local air traffic, it isn't an intercept capability as a country with an air force/military radar would recognise.
As a by-the-by, you're the perfect man to let me know if the AC have sent anyone on RAF courses since the death of Derek Furniss? Are BFM's still on the wings/instructors courses? Any aspirations on adding any new weapons to the PC9s, or acquiring a target-towing pod?
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Thanks men for the answers.
<snip>
Fact is we are an Island country on the edge of Europe with no jets. Now why didnt we buy maybe 4 PC9s as lead ins and 4 L159s ?
Also, there are / were loads of other options, the Mig 21 Bison ? The NZ Skyhawks ? The list is endless. All answers gratefully recieved. Would just love us to have some proper jets, How can you retire Fougas and go backwards and get Props ? Honestly FUEL cannot be an excuse for this decision at all. I suspect something else, but we will get round to that later..
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What is it exactly that you want jets for? If you can give a specific answer we can give you specific reasons why it didn't happen!
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This is the most read topic i ve seen in a long time (326) and still going.. :jaw-dropping: :jaw-dropping:
Aw139 :ireland:
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Sorry Tempest, I cant put that info on a public forum. I do have the answers but dont want to get in trouble. I hope you understand.
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Re: PC-9 V Hawk; Would love to know what the actual parameters of the test were. When they say at low level do they mean the actual performance figures (and at what height) or how the aircraft "turn and burn" as such in the low level envoiroment which to me is through rough mountainous terrain not straight and level over a bog.
(Though I suppose it's mostly mountainous in Switzerland)
I've seen both PC-9's and Hawks (lots of them!!) and flown in a Hawk at low level and from my experiance the Hawk is a nasty little machine in the right hands down in the weeds.
I've seen Hawks beat Harriers and Tonkas and even Strike Eagles (not hard) in low level dogfights.
While I appreciate that the PC-9 will probably have a better turn radius than a Hawk , IMO I'd say the Hawk would whoop the PC-9's ass across the over all flight envelope.
Of course let's not forget that Pilatus is Swiss also :airforce_wink:
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Lads,
Jetman has been banned, turns out it was Lootenant Pigeon putting in an appearance again... banned once, banned yet again.
We'll have to wait and see if this website of his and the Irish Times article appear, I'm sure he mentioned something along this line in his previous incarnation.
Regards,
Frank.
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I thought it was my imagination or I was getting paranoid. I recognised the type of stuff he was writing, but was waiting for someone else to pick up on it.
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I did say a few days ago in a post 'is it just me’? and then 'Time to put Hello Folks to bed' looks like the site has been set up!!!. Someone has far too much time on their hands. Thought I could smell a rat from day one. Good move Frank. Let’s put it behind us.
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I had my suspicions a day or two back but just didn't connect the dots... next time lads if you suspect anything let me know directly, don't just hint at it, good and all as I am I can't watch all the posts all the time!
I'm geting old too, I can't pick up on every hint :-(
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Will do Boss :thumbsup:
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God dam it!!! :banghead:
I knew his last few posts were dodgy!!
Anyhoo, my replies were to Claudel, I suppose we can just have the Hawk V PC-9 debate over a cup of Cha instead :rotfl:
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Just when we thought it was safe to post helpfull replies the pidgeon returns. Good man Frank, nipped in the bud :fryingpan:
Joe
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Good work Frank!
Was just reading this thread for the first time and thought that 'Jetman's' posts seemed very like our old "friend" 'FiannaFail'...is that who Lootenant Pidgeon' is?!
Having said that, I am very interested in Claudel's mention of the PC-9's doing 'intercepts' during the recent state visits. Can you expand on these please Claudel?
- what aircraft were intercepted?
- approx location?
- how many PC-9's were on patrol at any one time?
- weapons carried?
- what people were "impressed" by the PC-9's performance during the visits?
- what approx range do the ADR radars cover?
(I dont think any of my above questions are classified??)
I bought several papers each day during the state visits in the hope of seeing photos of PC-9's on patrol during the visits...but to no avail
...no Air Corps patrol footage shown on RTE or TV3 either afaik??
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Silver i dont know if this will be any help to you.in the days to the run up to the state visit of the queen there where two pc-9s with gun pods doing a holding pattern around casement i live right next to baldonnel and they where always out doing the same routine close formation flying taking off from runway 23 then turning right over tallaght and citywest.Wish i had got some photos but i joint the site after the visit.Hopw this helps.
Reagrds aw139
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- what aircraft were intercepted?
I believe it was a Pidgeon , determined to sh1t on the queen :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Nice one Mach :biggrin:
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Lol :applause:
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Don't know about intercepts, but on the day of the Queen's departure I was stuck in traffic (happily as it turned out), trying to get to Douglas which in my case meant crossing the airport road when I saw a pc9 appear, having just taken off from runway 17, banking to starboard showing off it's gun pods.
Have to say it looked great and I was very impressed.
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Sorry Tempest, I cant put that info on a public forum. I do have the answers but dont want to get in trouble. I hope you understand.
No probs, I understand, will await a future issue of An Cosantoir! ;D
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A few photo's of the PC9 from that day at Cork,
http://www.worldairpics.com/photo/1041740/M/Pilatus-PC-9M/262/Irish-Air-Corps/?&sid=3377672199&sp=1
http://www.worldairpics.com/photo/1041698/M/Pilatus-PC-9M/262/Irish-Air-Corps/?&sid=3377672199&sp=2
http://www.worldairpics.com/photo/1041643/M/Pilatus-PC-9M/263/Irish-Air-Corps/?&sid=3377672199&sp=3
http://www.worldairpics.com/photo/1041642/M/Pilatus-PC-9M/260/Irish-Air-Corps/?&sid=3377672199&sp=4
Regards,
Paul
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Once again corkspotter fantastic pictures pal :bowdown:
aw139 :ireland: