Post by: Silver on February 27, 2005, 02:32:39 pm
See http://www.avrocadet.com/ for aircraft details.
Apparently, the Dept of Finance stepped in and put an end to the deal.
Well, why not sell a couple of Marchetti's to fund the aquisition of the Cadet ?
I recall reading a few years ago the s/h Marchetti's can fetch in the region of $100,000 - and are much in demand.
(There is no reason why the Marchetti's can't be 'demilitarised' and sold on the open market.)
That way the DoF don't have to hand out any money and the AC would have their most historic aircraft returned to Ireland.
It really would be a disgrace if this piece of Irish aviation history was lost to the State !!!
Post by: FMolloy on February 27, 2005, 05:25:26 pm
Post by: Rover1 on February 27, 2005, 06:15:47 pm
Rover1
Post by: Silver on February 27, 2005, 07:42:30 pm
Post by: FiannaFail on February 27, 2005, 11:21:30 pm
FiannaFail
Post by: FMolloy on February 28, 2005, 02:10:36 am
| Quote (FiannaFail @ 27 Feb. 2005,14:21) |
| My own view of this is that we should keep some of the Marchettis for Basic Flight Training and light strike training. FiannaFail |
What's the benefit in a small air wing like the AC operating two entirely different aircraft in the same role? Especially when it's training needs aren't massive?
Post by: clan on February 28, 2005, 07:13:21 pm
Post by: Silver on March 01, 2005, 01:44:21 am
I have just finished a lenghty correspondence to the Minister of Defence, Willie O'Dea T.D. requesting that Avro Cadet C7 be purchased by the State and returned to Ireland where it belongs.
I do not believe funding is a valid reason not to go ahead with this project.
There is no reason, for example, why one (or two) of the Marchetti's cannot be sold and the funds used to purchase 'C7' !
Ask yourself this .........
If €2 million can be spent on the Collins Museum in Cork, why can we not spend €151,000 (or less!!) on the most historic Irish Air Corps aircraft in existence ?!!!
Therefore, I ask that you send an email (or letter) to the Minister of Defence, requesting the return of 'C7' to Baldonnel -
Email - minister@defence.irlgov.ie
Postal address:
Willie O'Dea T.D.,
Minister of Defence,
Department of Defence,
Parkgate,
Infirmary Road,
Dublin 7.
(N.B. - Your email or letter does not have to be lenghty or elaborate - just a few sentences showing your interest in this matter will suffice).
Avro Cadet C7.
I have no connection whatsoever with the seller of this aircraft. I just wish to see (what many countries would regard as) a 'national treasure' returned to Ireland.
Silver.
Post by: sealion on March 01, 2005, 03:25:29 am
Whats so special and historic about it?
Post by: RMR on March 01, 2005, 05:58:28 am
Post by: Silver on March 01, 2005, 12:32:11 pm
| Quote (sealion @ 28 Feb. 2005,18:25) |
| Puts on idiot hat Whats so special and historic about it? |
The fact that it is the oldest AC aircraft in existence makes it both 'special' and 'historic' - the fact that it is oldest airworthy AC aircraft only adds to it's historic value !
Post by: pilatus on March 01, 2005, 07:38:27 pm
Post by: Rover1 on March 01, 2005, 07:58:10 pm
| Quote (sealion @ 28 Feb. 2005,18:25) |
| Puts on idiot hat Whats so special and historic about it? |
Sealion Keep the hat on ! you do not seem to have any respect for our history
Post by: FiannaFail on March 01, 2005, 08:47:59 pm
It woould be nice to gwt a Spitfire back as well!
FiannaFail
Post by: Fouga on March 01, 2005, 09:22:18 pm
Post by: Silver on March 01, 2005, 09:46:23 pm
I have a lenghty letter ready to send off in the morning.
Post by: RMR on March 01, 2005, 10:38:08 pm
Post by: Fouga on March 02, 2005, 03:47:23 pm
Post by: John K on March 02, 2005, 11:32:06 pm
Post by: Silver on March 03, 2005, 07:05:09 pm
From 'Step Together!' - Ireland's Emergency Army 1939-46' As Told By It's Veterans' by Donal MacCarron.
"....one foolhardy competition that Mac, Denis 'agus me fein' engaged in for a time was over a wooded spot out of view of Rineanna where we spun the Cadet (C7) from 2000 feet to see who could get in the most turns before pulling out. It was Denis, I think, who had a very near miss, hitting the leaves on recovery - but winning. I recall dropping message weights for a local girl friend in a back field in Raheen. On at least two occassions, I landed in the Cadet in a field, and recall taking one of her two brothers fro a short spin over the Shannon nearby."
Post by: John K on March 03, 2005, 09:18:42 pm
It certainly would be good for the Air Corps to get some of their history back with that Cadet, though.
Post by: Silver on March 03, 2005, 11:48:47 pm
I hope you've sent off an email in support of the C7 campaign, John K ? ............you being ex-AC and all ?!
Post by: Tony Kearns on March 04, 2005, 08:47:45 am
Tony k
Post by: John K on March 04, 2005, 08:54:16 am
JK
Post by: Tony Kearns on March 04, 2005, 09:10:32 am
Still here, yes busy with other things and not too keen with some of the other postings. Take care.
Tony K
Post by: Silver on March 04, 2005, 03:10:09 pm
) even include a photo of C7 back in Baldonnel !
Post by: Guinness on March 05, 2005, 10:17:29 pm
I think your minister was quite surprised when he found an e-mail from the Netherlands in his mailbox
Guinness
Post by: Silver on March 05, 2005, 11:27:02 pm
Every email (or letter) counts - be it from a member or non-member of this board !
Silver.
Post by: Silver on March 09, 2005, 06:25:09 pm
"A seventh Cadet was aquired on 8th September 1934 to replace an example written off near Baldonnel on 3rd August 1933. This replacement served until being disposed of in 1945 and going on to the Irish civil register. After many years of storage, the one-time C.7 and Ireland's oldest surviving military aircraft was moved to Britain on 24th October 1984 and again entered a period of dust gathering. On 16th May 1991 it was exported to New Zealand where it is being restored to airworthy condition"
(As we know - it is now fully airworthy).
-------------------------------------------
It would be good to know who has sent an email or letter re this campaign ?
...........and if anybody has got a reply ?
Post by: FiannaFail on March 09, 2005, 09:41:24 pm
FiannaFail
Post by: FMolloy on March 09, 2005, 09:53:20 pm
And it's yet to be proven that emailing Willie has made a difference.
Post by: Fouga on March 10, 2005, 08:38:03 pm
Dear Mr. McGrath,
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your recent e-mail, the contents of which have
been duly noted.
Yours sincerely,
COLM HENRY
PRIVATE SECRETARY
MINISTER FOR DEFENCE
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "david mc grath"
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:21:03 +0000
>Dear Sir i am writing to see if it is possible to bring back to Baldonnel
>(EIME) Avro Cadet 'C7' . I think it should be back with the Air Corps where
>it belongs as it is the most historic Irish Air Corps aircraft in existence.
Post by: Silver on March 10, 2005, 08:52:10 pm
If more people send emails/letters it may just be enough to get them thinking about the subject ........... then maybe they will 'see sense' and bring C7 back to it's true home !
Post by: Fouga on March 11, 2005, 11:55:48 am
Post by: RMR on March 11, 2005, 07:25:34 pm
i got exactly the same reply today!!!
Post by: John K on March 13, 2005, 09:39:00 am
Post by: Guinness on March 13, 2005, 11:03:19 am
Guinness
Post by: Fouga on March 13, 2005, 08:26:40 pm
Post by: 202 on March 15, 2005, 10:15:37 am
Post by: Fouga on March 15, 2005, 02:44:35 pm
Post by: sealion on March 15, 2005, 03:20:44 pm
Reluctant as I am to agree with FF,would our energies be not better used emailing the Minister to seek a proper effective air wing for the defence forces instead of the current lipservice that the Air Corps provides?
Is this the way of the new wishlist? Instead of looking for new fighters,we are seeking the return of old ones?
Post by: Tony Kearns on March 15, 2005, 03:33:27 pm
I am of the opinion that if we were so lucky as to acquire the Cadet it would go to the Collins Barracks Museum in Dublin with the Miles Magister, Vampire, the Wright replica and possibly an AlouetteIII. I hope the campaign is successful and to say that other sources which I cannot say at the moment are also working to save the Cadet.
Tony K
Post by: 202 on March 15, 2005, 04:12:48 pm
Of course, if it went for static display then the resource questions would not arise (apart of course from the initial purchase and shipping costs) and, debatably, it would be seen up close by far more people.
Without doubt it would be a wonderful addition to our scarce Defence Forces and aviation heritage inventory. However the cost of purchase is an issue; difficult to justify the diversion of funds that could be used for contemporary equipment. Of course if some leading player in the private aviation sector in Ireland were to step in and make a (presumably tax deductible) sponsorship available then it could be a win-win outcome for all.
Post by: Fouga on March 15, 2005, 10:31:15 pm
Post by: Silver on March 15, 2005, 11:04:15 pm
| Quote (202 @ 15 Mar. 2005,01:15) |
| Just a few questions ... who would maintain the aircraft? fly it? accommodate it? and what ongoing running costs would be involved. Would these costs involve a diversion of resources from current requirements? |
The Air Corps have already tried (in vain, thanks to the meddling of the dept of finance!) to purchase C7, so they must have already had a plan worked out of where to accomodate it (in the museum ?), who would fly it (e.g. I believe the GOC is certified to fly a 'taildragger') and who would maintain it (Air Corps techies and museum crew?).
As for taking resources from elsewhere, how much time and effort can it take to maintain a fully restored aircraft that will only see occassional flying time ?........... very little I would suspect.
Post by: Silver on March 15, 2005, 11:10:29 pm
(N.B. As I stated before, we could sell one of the Marchettis to fund the C7 purchase).
Post by: Buran on March 16, 2005, 01:21:10 pm
This one is only special because its the oldest right now.
If it was the Big Fella, that would be another thing altogether, or if this aircraft had done some particular achievement of note. But to my knowlegde, its just an old plane.
Ok the fact that it is still airworthy, and is an ex aer corps plane, makes it part of a very exclusive group, and maybe thats the reason to buy it.
But if there was a fund available, and we could choose this, or an airworthy hurricane, for example, id go for the hurricane any day.
Also, another point that i think needs to be made. The spitfire in duxford. Would i rather see it in duxford or with the aer corps? To be honest, given the uncertainty that surrounds the air corps museum, id prefer it to stay in duxford, where its future is much more secure.
Post by: Silver on March 16, 2005, 09:20:39 pm
| Quote (Buran @ 16 Mar. 2005,04:21) |
| Im not saying im against the purchase of this aircraft, but in fairness, there will always be AN oldest Irish Aer Corps aircraft at any point in time. This one is only special because its the oldest right now. |
Buran,
You're missing the point !
This is THE oldest AC plane in the world.
There is no (and there never will be!) an older AC plane that this one !!!
Post by: 202 on March 17, 2005, 10:36:30 pm
Post by: Silver on March 17, 2005, 11:57:10 pm
Let us hope that with the recent opening of the Michael Collins museum wing in Cork, that the DoD has started to show a real interest in preserving our military heritage - military transport included !!
Post by: Tony Kearns on March 18, 2005, 07:45:46 pm
Tony K
Post by: sealion on March 18, 2005, 09:15:18 pm
If the Military authorities were serious about preserving military heritage,we would still be stuck with Beggars Bush,Griffith barracks,Collins,Clancy in Dublin,
and every other relic of British Occupation. Preservation orders would have been placed on them to prevent any modernisation. I recently saw a complaint that Collins Barracks In Cork had replaced the old timber windows with PVC in the main buildings,ruining the look of the longest continously occupied barracks in europe.
True,But soldiers in the 1800s rarely lived to see 40....I'll take no Pneumonia over heritage any day.
The same could happen here. The Air Corps are stuck with preserving every antique aircraft in its inventory,leaving a well stocked museum,but a non existant air arm.
Lets leave the preservation to the People at places like Duxford? They are better at it,and the public have better access to see the exhibits,which in turn funds the preservation process.
Post by: Silver on March 19, 2005, 12:12:19 am
That the Air Corps are not capable of storing/maintaining a few vintage aircraft ?
Utter rubbish !!
Time to get real !
The money involved with restoring and maintaining vintage aircraft is a pittance when compared to the millions involved in purchasing new planes and helis.
Lets face it, if it wasn't for the dedication of many Air Corps personnel over the years, we would have NO vintage AC aircraft to speak of. These people worked in their own time - and with money raised by themselves - to preserve the few aircraft that (luckily!) somehow survived !
What is your problem ?
The Air Corps ARE getting new aircraft : PC-9's, EC-135's, AB139's.........and keeping a few old aircraft in a hangar will make NO difference to the purchasing or otherwise of new aircraft !!!
(N.B. - While I believe we can get the balance right between preservation of buildings and moden facailities - this thread is about preserving military aircraft - not buildings. )
Post by: sealion on March 19, 2005, 05:40:58 am
Take off the blinkers,avoid the personal abuse,and just listen to other peoples viewpoints for a change.
I dont know of any other air arm that keeps vintage aircraft preserved in anything other than gate guardian condition.
The Air Corps job is as an arm of the defence forces to defend the state. Nowhere in the DF roles does it say "preserve the nations heritage"or "act as curator to the air corps museum".
I have no problem.
| Quote |
| The money involved with restoring and maintaining vintage aircraft is a pittance when compared to the millions involved in purchasing new planes and helis |
Odd then that Duxford have to charge an entry fee....and all their preservation people are volunteers.
Post by: RMR on March 19, 2005, 08:15:10 am
Post by: RMR on March 19, 2005, 08:24:13 am
Post by: Silver on March 19, 2005, 12:49:02 pm
| Quote (sealion @ 18 Mar. 2005,20:40) | ||||||||||
Don't think so - I'm very open to discussions !
I do not have 'blinkers'. Sorry if I "abused" you, but I'm kinda interested in this topic. I'm listening, but only reading negativity from you. One would think we were taking millions from the Defence budget.
The RNZAF have a museum on their Ohakea base - I visited it last year. The RNZAF also operate an airworthy Tiger Moth. (I'm sure I could find lots more such examples if I had the time to look - which I don't right now!)
Yes, the AC's role is defence. But there is nothing that says they cannot have a museum collection either. If it were not for some AC folks, we would have no vintage aircraft !
Your point is ? Whats wrong with charging an entry fee What is wrong with volunteers I'm talking about the cost of purchasing old aircraft (C7 for example) as being a 'pittance' compared to new aircraft purchases. |
Post by: Fouga23 on March 19, 2005, 01:00:32 pm
| Quote (sealion @ 18 Mar. 2005,20:40) |
| I dont know of any other air arm that keeps vintage aircraft preserved in anything other than gate guardian condition. |
The Dutch AF (KLu) has a historical flight. They have 1 Auster, 5 Piper Cubs, 1 Beaver, 1 Fokker F-27, 1 Ryan STM, 1 Stinson, 1 Beech T-7, 6 Harvard AT-16, 4 Fokker S-11, 1 Tiger Moth and 1 Spitfire MK IX. All in flying condition.
Post by: RMR on March 19, 2005, 01:57:04 pm
Post by: Frank on March 19, 2005, 02:21:24 pm
Post by: sealion on March 21, 2005, 06:20:34 am
RNZAF is hardly a good example,as their useful assets are being withdrawn.
Just like my input to this discussion. I want a modern air corps. Not a Historical flight.
I want to read about the Air Corps in Air Force Monthly,not Flypast.
Post by: Buran on March 21, 2005, 02:31:22 pm
| Quote |
| Buran, You're missing the point ! This is THE oldest AC plane in the world. There is no (and there never will be!) an older AC plane that this one !!! |
With respect, i think you missed my point.
There is a difference between age and historical significance.
I agree with others on this thread, that sometimes people put down others in order to further their own point. This only serves to p**s people off so they wander off to other boards. The idea of a discussion board is to promote discussion on the topic. Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean that they are an idiot. Sometimes negativity needs to be brought to a discussion, even if only see how the original argument stands up. We cant persue every idea with enthusiasm.
Post by: Silver on March 21, 2005, 07:27:09 pm
| Quote (Buran @ 21 Mar. 2005,05:31) | ||
With respect, i think you missed my point. There is a difference between age and historical significance. I agree with others on this thread, that sometimes people put down others in order to further their own point. This only serves to p**s people off so they wander off to other boards. The idea of a discussion board is to promote discussion on the topic. Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean that they are an idiot. Sometimes negativity needs to be brought to a discussion, even if only see how the original argument stands up. We cant persue every idea with enthusiasm. |
The fact of the matter is that C7 is the oldest Air Corps plane - end of story. There can never be an 'older' AC plane that it - bar a replica is built at some stage - and even so, a replica would have no historical value.
I apologise if I got a little "excited" at times during this discussion. I did not intend to offend, or put anybody down. All comments are always welcome on this board - even if I sometimes disagree with them.
I just believe that people are being a bit ott when they suggest that a few old aircraft are going to destroy the AC budget.
The AC is currently being re-equipped and I believe will continue to be so.
A museum collection would merely be a positive way to publicise the Corps to the public, and develop the esprit de corps of the AC.
I recall reading that the AC has/had plans to open the museum to the public and to include a viewing platform for people to observe AC aircraft movements ...............just think how that would bolster interest in the AC
Post by: pym on March 21, 2005, 10:46:21 pm
It's hard, if not impossible to put a price on heritage, but being a fairly practical person (i think) I dont see any compelling reason to have the Acro C7 sitting in Baldonnel. The only reason there is: in the interests of completeness, it would be nice.
Silver, your heart is obviously in the right place but when it comes to "promotion" of the Air Corps, I cant see what the point is. Promote it to whom? If the aircraft in question was purchased, in all likelyhood you'd have a weeks worth of phone calls into Joe Duffy, all of the same tune "blah traffic, blah hospitals, blah my foot hurts", not to mention those oh so big political parties complaining.... although at least the Avro isnt Nato standard.
I digress..... The point is that the Air Corps have thousands of applicants each year, they dont need any promotion whatsoever, what they need is modern equipment for modern military roles. The Avro doesnt help this cause.
By the same token anyone who suggests the Air Corps will become an historical flight if this aircraft is purchased is being alarmist and idiotic.
It'd be nice to have it, but would the money not be better spent on getting a few more people in the Army issued with their proper kit?
Anyway....
Post by: FMolloy on March 22, 2005, 01:16:28 pm
| Quote (Silver @ 21 Mar. 2005,10:27) |
| The fact of the matter is that C7 is the oldest Air Corps plane - end of story. There can never be an 'older' AC plane... |
If/when the C7 ceases to exist, it would no longer be the oldest aircraft & the next oldest one assumes the mantle.
Which brings be to my second point. Assuming they buy the C7, would keeping it flying be worth the risk? As I see it, there's a financial risk & a human risk. The human risk would be that to the plane's pilot, historical flights have lost aircraft before & the C7 does not have anywhere near the survivability of a modern aircraft. Would flying the C7 be worth the potential cost of a pilot's life? The financial risk is putting all that money into an aircraft that could crash & reduce the investment to matchwood.
I would support the purchase of the C7, provided additonal funds were made available for the purchase & it was permanently grounded in a museum. I think Sealion makes a very valid point about the AC concentrating it's limited resources on it's future.
Post by: Buran on March 22, 2005, 01:22:45 pm
I think this could well be serviced by an air corps museum/historical flight. Although i think it might well be better done to have it as a separate organisation (charity?) that must live or die on its own two feet. I would see its funds coming from, lets say a yearly grant from the dept, lotto funds, public donations/sponsorship, etc. But it wouldn't be seen to be coming from the same operational funds for the main stream aer corps.
For the record, Im not against having an air corps museum/historical flight. Im only questioning this particular purchase. (Note: 'questioning' does not mean totally against either)
Post by: Silver on March 22, 2005, 08:04:56 pm
Some people here seem to view the cost of C7 (c.€150,000 or less) as an amount that would have a major impact on the defence budget?!
I 'take my hat off' to the guys who maintained the few old Air Corps aircraft left - as if such negative feedback is emanating from a site devoted to the Air Corps - what chances are there of anybody else being interested in preserving our military aircraft heritage (the little of it that still exist's!) !!
*Silver signs off this topic*
Post by: Fouga23 on March 22, 2005, 10:05:25 pm
Don't let the negative reactions get you down! I find it a very good idea. The history is too much being looked over these days. What good is the future if you don't treasure your past?
Post by: Tony Kearns on March 23, 2005, 12:15:43 am
Keep the faith, it really could not come out of the Defence Force budget. Let's concentrate on the alternatives.
Tony K
Post by: Guinness on March 23, 2005, 07:07:52 pm
Maybe I'm re-inventing the wheel but just a thought
Guinness
Post by: John K on March 29, 2005, 12:23:04 am
Post by: Historical-avi-irl.i8.com on April 09, 2005, 09:20:39 pm
Good Luck-