Post by: pilatus on October 07, 2004, 09:30:40 pm
Post by: Dublin Spotter on October 08, 2004, 12:54:55 am
Post by: The SeaWolf on October 08, 2004, 04:56:30 am
What I wanted to ask was bearing in mind that we generally agree here that Ireland's Aer Corps and Naval service are er, somewhat overstretched what is a realistic timescale for them to be rejenuvated in? (provided some actual investment is forthcoming from central govt.)
Judging from the general tone of conversation here the dream scenario would be one in which a small fleet of modern, fast jets might operate out of Ireland. As realistically, this is unlikely to happen what do you think the main priorities should be in the next 5-10 years?
On a personal note I am astounded as an outside observer by the fact that Ireland has such a small naval fleet, which is tasked with patrolling a huge area. I know several private reports have strongly recommend increasing the fleet from 8 to at least 12 (and ideally 16 vessels) and restructuring the Aer Crops from the ground up with newer equipment. Sadly, since the Dail seem to regard Ireland's military with a certain ammount of disdain I see no future in which it will be modernised myself. On the offchance that it were though what would be the rough cost does anybody know of enlarging the Aer Crops to include say a small fleet of more modern SAR equipped helicopters and purchasing at least one more HPV for the Naval service?
The current tragedy shows it is important I think for the Republic to have it's own capabilties in this area, it cannot and should not always have to rely on the RAF.
Post by: tashkurgan on October 08, 2004, 09:00:32 am
Well you know what, we do spend quite an amount complaining about the lack of capability in a number of key defense areas, but I do think we actually have good SAR cover for a country this size.
We don't need Frigates with EH101s. The 5 Coastguard S-61Ns we have (4 operational plus one spare) actually gives the country a pretty good SAR capability.
Post by: The SeaWolf on October 08, 2004, 09:07:43 am
Post by: futurepilot on October 08, 2004, 11:04:06 am
Post by: sealion on October 08, 2004, 05:36:29 pm
Even the older Castle class of the RN have a helideck,which can land a seaking,with little else.
Whats the point in just getting the bare minimum though?
A Large multirole vessel could have been in a position to assist in the rescue operation,and treat the injured crew without needing to evacuate to a nearby hospital,like in this case,Sligo.
Post by: The SeaWolf on October 08, 2004, 06:59:58 pm
Also if Ireland is serious about subscribing to UN missions and maintaining it's commitment to these surely some sort of transport ship for troops and equipment with the capability for multiple helicopters (2 to 4) to land and depart would be a major asset. In the short term at least surely this would be a useful step in making the defences forces more up-to-date and efficient. Also, the argument for buying decent equipment can with the submarine disaster be seen to be more than a purely military one -as pointed out a decent ship could have provided on the scenes assistance*. None of this is any reflection of course upon the individuals who perservere to do their best in both the Naval Service and Air Corps with the equipment they are given.
I can see that anything like fast jets etc. are not to be seriously considered for some time yet but many small countries at a similar income level have a far better equipment base.
* Which in all honesty the Royal Navy did very professionally of course. However it is irksome to think that the Irish Republic lacks the capability to do so itself, the old excuses that 'we don't have the finances' are beginning to wear rather thin.
Post by: Bitch on October 08, 2004, 08:49:54 pm
This Island is currently well resourced with rescue assets and if there "not required" as was the case last tuesday then all the shipbourne helis that we might ever dream of having may be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. Roll on the day that we do have a well equiped military system.
Post by: clan on October 08, 2004, 09:59:52 pm
Post by: Imshi-Yallah on October 09, 2004, 01:08:46 pm
The NS has far more need for an unglamourous ocean going tug, and a naval helicopter wing would never be justified, if naval heli ops can be justified then it must be on the scale of a large troop vessel capable of operating at least four helicopters...there is ample justification for that but great expense which rules it out.
Post by: Pink Panther on October 09, 2004, 05:37:00 pm
| Quote (clan @ 08 Oct. 2004,12:59) |
| This might seem a stupid question, but if the three injured crew members of the Sub were airlifted off the day of the accident or the next day by the Air Corp S61 could we have saved the life of young Sailor. Instead of waiting for a doctor to put on board some days later. |
Hindsight is 20/20 vision, that decision lay with the commander of the sub.As for naval vessels equipped with heli's it would have made no difference.Sea state dictated it would be highly unlikely they could have launched a heli no matter what type as the pitching and roiling of the vessels would have exceeded the take off and landing limits of the aircraft
Post by: John K on October 09, 2004, 09:13:06 pm
Post by: clan on October 09, 2004, 10:24:31 pm
Post by: Silver on October 10, 2004, 08:19:33 am
It stated that the sub was "160 miles off the Irish coast".
Well within our territorial waters, correct ?
Our SAR area ,yes ?
It also stated that "an Irish naval vessel had to limp back to port ..... due to heavy seas".
What it meant by "limp" I don't know
I still say that the two navalised Dauphins should be retained, upgraded (c.1.5 million euros each) and retained for NS use - be it from Eithne or a future NS vessel.
Much cheaper than buying new navalised helis at a future date !
If/when the NS gets it's new transport ship (to support UN missions etc) helis should be part of it's spec - to move supplys, medivac troops, etc.
It would also make the NS more capable in SAR situations like the sub incident.
What if this incident had been another Air India disaster ?
Yes, the CG helis would respond - but a heli equipped NS vessel would be a major help in such a situation.
Post by: Pink Panther on October 10, 2004, 02:28:30 pm
Post by: Imshi-Yallah on October 10, 2004, 04:56:09 pm
| Quote (Silver @ 09 Oct. 2004,23:19) |
| I read about the sub incident in 'The Press' newspaper here in New Zealand. It stated that the sub was "160 miles off the Irish coast". Well within our territorial waters, correct ? Our SAR area ,yes ? It also stated that "an Irish naval vessel had to limp back to port ..... due to heavy seas". What it meant by "limp" I don't know I still say that the two navalised Dauphins should be retained, upgraded (c.1.5 million euros each) and retained for NS use - be it from Eithne or a future NS vessel. Much cheaper than buying new navalised helis at a future date ! If/when the NS gets it's new transport ship (to support UN missions etc) helis should be part of it's spec - to move supplys, medivac troops, etc. It would also make the NS more capable in SAR situations like the sub incident. What if this incident had been another Air India disaster ? Yes, the CG helis would respond - but a heli equipped NS vessel would be a major help in such a situation. |
Why? even if it could take off, the heli wouldnt be any more useful than a coast based MLH if even that useful.
Post by: pym on October 10, 2004, 05:25:37 pm
It might make a comeback in 10+ years time if a troop transport ship was procured - but that isn't very likely, I can't see a government having the resolve to buy a ship and kit it out adequately for overseas missions.
In the absense of medium lift helicopters and dedicated transport aircraft a transport ship is pie in the sky
Post by: pilatus on October 10, 2004, 06:04:24 pm
Post by: pym on October 10, 2004, 06:20:22 pm
Why divide the scant equipment and expertise? Being an Air Corps pilot is one of the most desirable jobs in this country for a lot of people - if anyone joining up today has a problem with serving at sea for a few weeks then they shouldnt be allowed enter service.
Anyway this is a pointless discussion - from what I've heard about the Eithne it's most likely no helicopter will ever fly from her again. And the likelyhood of another HPV entering service or a troop transport ship seems remote.
Post by: Fouga on October 10, 2004, 10:08:20 pm
Post by: 202 on October 10, 2004, 10:23:41 pm
Post by: Silver on October 10, 2004, 10:36:54 pm
You are correct. UK's area.
I still believe in the re-fitted Dauphin plan.
And yes pilatus, naval cadets could be trained to fly naval helis - that would be the proper way to do it !
Strange about Roisin alright ?!
However, somebody on IMO said that it was a freak wave, and that these things can happen even to the best ships?!
Post by: Frank on October 10, 2004, 10:40:39 pm
As far as I know the reason the L.E. Roisin turned back was because the sea conditions were so rough that part of the ships stabilisation system was ripped out of the hull and the ship started taking on water, forcing it to turn around and return to Donegal for emergency repairs.
As was said in a previous post, Mother Nature is a powerful force.
Regards,
Frank.
Post by: pym on October 10, 2004, 10:54:53 pm
The Dauphin is too limited and the Eithne as far as I know cannot be upgraded to take anything more useful... If a new Helicopter carrying vessel was on the cards for the Navy then the Air Corps should logically go with the Blackhawk and put the Seahawk in service on any such future vessel. But like I said earlier - pie in the sky....
The Dauphins are history
Post by: sealion on October 10, 2004, 11:15:28 pm
| Quote (Frank @ 10 Oct. 2004,22:40) |
| Hi Guys, As far as I know the reason the L.E. Roisin turned back was because the sea conditions were so rough that part of the ships stabilisation system was ripped out of the hull and the ship started taking on water, forcing it to turn around and return to Donegal for emergency repairs. As was said in a previous post, Mother Nature is a powerful force. Regards, Frank. |
This is the second time this has happened to Roisin.
The company who built her(and made the initial repairs,which happened during sea trials)have since gone into liquidation.
L.E. Niamh is a far superior ship,with better seakeeping qualities. Roisin it seems,was for the most part a monday morning job. The design itself is supposed to be able to operate in the Indian Oceans Typhoon season,so an atlantic swell shouldnt be an issue.
I understand that it was only when the NS were sure that no further loss of life was imminent that they decided to turn back,while L.E Aoife(earlier sturdier design) and L.E Niamh continued to the scene.
However freak waves are just that. Ships have been sunk by freak waves. We should be thankful that there was no further loss of life during this tragic event.
Post by: 202 on October 11, 2004, 10:31:47 am
Post by: Fouga on October 11, 2004, 11:55:02 am
Post by: pilatus on October 11, 2004, 06:44:59 pm
| Quote (pym @ 10 Oct. 2004,13:54) |
| Sorry but I cant see the logic behind refitting the Dauphins when the Air Corps are moving onto a new fleet of helicopters so soon. And why continue to operate the 20 year old Dauphins off a ship that was designed for a Lynx? Their original role so far as I understand was to aid the task of fisheries protection - that role has been consigned to history since the Casa's delivery. So once again why have them? For scenarios like the recent Submarine tradgedy? The Dauphins probably couldnt have even taken off from the deck, if the sea conditions were as bad as reported. The Dauphin is too limited and the Eithne as far as I know cannot be upgraded to take anything more useful... If a new Helicopter carrying vessel was on the cards for the Navy then the Air Corps should logically go with the Blackhawk and put the Seahawk in service on any such future vessel. But like I said earlier - pie in the sky.... The Dauphins are history |
yes the corps is moving onto a new fleet of choppers shortly but so few are being aqquired that it would be extremly hard to fly them of ships because of their ARMY SUPPORT role not a NAVY SUPPORT role and secondly the dauphin-navy issue was not consigned to the history books because of the delivery of the CASAs.while the dauphins where flying from Eithne before the CASAs arrived 3King Air200s were flying fisherie protection.the Dauphins were used to put navy personnel onboard fishing trawlers so they could inspect them for themselves because there is no point in knowing were a vessel is if you dont know what it is doing!they also were used for security ops such as assisting the navy in drugs and arms interception etc.they would have 20years service ahead of them if upgraded.so yes there is logic behind upgrading.and the Eithne can operate other types such as the lynx A109(and i beleive there is a picture of a us coastguard dolphin landing on Eithne in the database!)
Post by: Fouga on October 11, 2004, 07:29:15 pm
Post by: Fouga on October 11, 2004, 07:34:09 pm
Why would it be hard for them to assist the Army in terms of Support could this help the Army better i think so as they would have limited Amphibious Assault training thereby utilising all three wings of the DF I.E Navy to house Army offshore before Assault and Heli's to transport them in and out. That would be great training methinks.
Post by: sealion on October 12, 2004, 03:10:18 am
| Quote (pilatus @ 11 Oct. 2004,18:44) |
| yes the corps is moving onto a new fleet of choppers shortly but so few are being aqquired that it would be extremly hard to fly them of ships because of their ARMY SUPPORT role not a NAVY SUPPORT role and secondly the dauphin-navy issue was not consigned to the history books because of the delivery of the CASAs.while the dauphins where flying from Eithne before the CASAs arrived 3King Air200s were flying fisherie protection.the Dauphins were used to put navy personnel onboard fishing trawlers so they could inspect them for themselves because there is no point in knowing were a vessel is if you dont know what it is doing!they also were used for security ops such as assisting the navy in drugs and arms interception etc.they would have 20years service ahead of them if upgraded.so yes there is logic behind upgrading.and the Eithne can operate other types such as the lynx A109(and i beleive there is a picture of a us coastguard dolphin landing on Eithne in the database!) |
A few errors there,hate to nitpick.
Only 2 SKA200s were used for fishery protection. The other was,and still is used for VIP transport/Multi engine conversion.
Dauphins never carried Naval Service boarding parties aboard trawlers. Its impossible in most cases,and impractical in others,unless you fastrope. Naval boarding parties were never trained for this. I Know of no naval force that uses the winch to lower boarding teams,and most trawlers in irish waters have little if any clear deck space where a heli could land.The Dauphins carry Air Corps crewmen,and they didn't do boardings either.
I dont remember any case where the dauphin assisted in any interception of either arms or drugs.
The Dauphin/eithne connection is as good as gone.
The Glide slope indicator has been removed,
the deck handling equipment has not been used for at least 7 years,and is showing all the signs of it.
The Helideck no longer has a non slip surface.
The fold down railings are too heavy to raise in rough seas,as there is a good chance a crewman could fall over the side in the process,
The Air corps accomodation has been converted into Washrooms and locker space.
The current skipper was one of the last officers who trained as FDO,and would like to see the return of the heli,but to operate effectively,it needs to be permanently attached to Eithne,and the air corps crews are reluctant to agree to this.
The Helideck has found a new role as a storage area for Containers and vehicles for overseas trips.
The A109 is not navalised. None of the type has been fitted with a harpoon for deck landings. USCG types are shore based.
The closest they ever came to boarding from a helicopter was when an Air Corps dauphin transferred a salvage team to the Yarrawonga back in the late 80s.
Post by: Silver on October 12, 2004, 07:57:25 am
Post by: clan on October 12, 2004, 09:46:09 am
So the UN/EU pay for the upgrade on the Aircraft/ the ships costs crews wages etc. And we get a new PV.
Don't shoot me just an idea.
Don't shoot me just a thought,
Post by: FMolloy on October 18, 2004, 02:17:39 am
| Quote |
| The Eithne could I am sure be easily converted back to a HPV. |
I'm trying not to sound smart here, but unless you're well acquainted with the changes made to Eithne you can't be sure.
| Quote |
| Could the Eithne not be used exclusively for ERF and UN roles with a Dauphin on board |
No, it can't. The NS does not have enough vessels as it is, and there are older ships that need replacing ahead of Eithne.
| Quote |
| Don't shoot me just an idea. |
Bang.
Post by: sealion on October 18, 2004, 05:51:17 am
I assume you mean NAVAL
Post by: Fouga on October 18, 2004, 01:04:14 pm
well said Sealion
Post by: clan on October 18, 2004, 02:09:42 pm
FMolloy my assumption that the Eithne can be converted back into a HPV is based on Observations made by serving Eithne personnel, so I take there word for it as I hope they know what they are talking about.
True, I am sure she is well down the list for replacement and that was the jist of my post. But what I meant and I was not clear about this was that Eithnes replacement should not in any way take away from the modernisation programme but should be carried out parallel to it as a separate programme. Which would combine the EU/UN needs plus our own and be funded separetly ie, total cost by the UN/EU including running costs. The ship would basically be under Irish command, financed by Brussels/UN crewed by Irish- and maybe some Europeans. This way, the ship gets used for what it was intended for, the Dauphins get retained and used in a Naval enviroment. Our NS crews get much needed and I am sure wanted foreign adventures plus we get a new Ship for Irish waters for free(effectively) without taking away urgent requirements from moderisation of the fleet.
Post by: paul g on October 18, 2004, 05:43:30 pm
The UN/EU wouldn't pay a penny towards any sort of ship for the naval service,the EU, has taken on lots of new poor members. We are now a rich country, don't qualify for funding anymore. the truth is that the money is there, but not the political will.
Post by: clan on October 18, 2004, 07:50:57 pm
I think you may be right about the money is there but unless somone pushes the right people at the right time we will get nothing. But then again the irish love something for nothing, so if they got off there collective Be-Hinds and asked nicely you never know.
Post by: Fouga on October 18, 2004, 08:06:29 pm
There are only 2 left this thread has gone on long enough. 1 crashed and the rest were/are being mothballed for parts and they will soon be gone. come on guys keep it real. We should be looking forward to what we will be getting. Hopefully the UH-60. Fact of the matter is the Alouette's are prob getting more airtime than the Dauphins because of their troop transport role. An officer told me that they are up more now because the army is utilising them more now that SAR is gone they have more free time to train with the army.
Post by: Fouga on October 18, 2004, 08:08:26 pm
Post by: IAS on October 18, 2004, 08:10:01 pm
I think Paul G is absolutely correct on this one, we have had almost everyting susidised up to now, our total Naval Service, the Casas and part of the Dauphins (not too sure on that one), it's now time to pay our way, after all we keep claiming to be the Celtic (toothless) Tiger. Remember when it comes to Defence we spend about 0.8% GDP whilst the EU (NATO) average is about 1.2% with some countries much more (including France and Germany).
IAS
Post by: clan on October 18, 2004, 10:06:32 pm
Cheers Fouga, I do remember you crying and whinging yourself about the Dauphins. But then again retaining the 2 Naval Dauphins was only a small part of my post
Post by: FMolloy on October 20, 2004, 02:25:27 am
| Quote |
| FMolloy my assumption that the Eithne can be converted back into a HPV is based on observations made by serving Eithne personnel, so I take there word for it as I hope they know what they are talking about. |
Sealion's earlier list of changes to Eithne's fight equippment doesn't sound like things that can be easily resolved. You should also check out htpmurphy's comments on Eithne over on IMO. He served on her & mentions a design flaw in her avgas tanks that lead to contamination.
There's also the fact that the NS no longer has the skills to operate a heli at sea, such skills can't be regained over night.
| Quote |
| total cost by the UN/EU including running costs. The ship would basically be under Irish command, financed by Brussels/UN crewed by Irish- and maybe some Europeans. |
Complete pie in the sky. The EU is finished giving us cash, as others have said, and the UN hasn't been too quick with the cash in the past.
| Quote |
| But it is just like us to be brass necks and ask for more and if we can get away with why not. |
Do you honestly believe they'd give us more cash?
| Quote |
| We need to be realistic |
The Naval Service is operating 8 vessels when it really needs 12-15 to do it's job properly. If the NS was given another ship, outside of replacing an older one, would it realistic to expect them to devote Eithne exclusively to UN/EU RRF duties?
Post by: clan on October 20, 2004, 05:38:20 pm
I think every one knows we need more ships, just like we need more helicopters, Planes, LUTV, tanks etc etc, but we are never going to spend our own money especially now with over 160 people on beds in corridors of Hospitals.
Complete Pie in the sky, is ungenerous and untrue, unless as I said you are qualifed to make those remarks which sadly it seems you are far from it. So maybe you could enlighten us with your ideas/thoughts instead of constantly knocking everyones else's as I seem to be struggling to find an original post from you on the board.
Post by: pym on October 20, 2004, 07:31:39 pm
Clan I hope I misunderstood your post - or are you saying you see nothing to show for all the years of EU spending in this country?
And finally lads dont worry about defence, judging by the fireworks and bangers going off outside my house - we'd scare any invaders away, especially with the Gardai's recent re-equipment with 40ks worth of the stuff
Post by: clan on October 20, 2004, 07:41:34 pm
Post by: FMolloy on October 20, 2004, 09:37:25 pm
| Quote |
| Unless you work for the EU you are not qualified to say we will not be getting any more money from the EU. The perception is we will not be getting more money, this is not the reality and that is a fact. |
Do you honestly expect the EU to keep giving us handouts? They've to fund the new Eastern European member states & they're expecting us to start coughing up for it. Is that an honest belief or a hope?
| Quote |
| I am aware of Htp Murphys posts but I also read Goldie Fishs post which he posted after a recent visit to Eithne where he was informed the Eithne "might" be converted back into a HPV. |
Are you referring to his comments on the recent family day at Haulbowline? If so, then you misunderstood him or read what you wanted to believe.
| Quote |
| Granted work needs to done to amend the design faults for this to happen. But it is not impossible. I do not recall saying this could happen over night or even implying it could |
You said you were sure it could be easily done. Does that mean that you define the following as easy?:
1. Re-arranging plant inside of Eithne.
2. Replacing the glide slope indicator, deck handling equipment, non-slip surface on the heli deck & fold-down railings.
3. Finding accomodation for the flight crew.
4. Training several NS pilots, flight crews & maintanace crews.
5. Finding or building suitable facilities at Haulbowline for helis.
| Quote |
| this is a discussion board I put my idea out there, how ever wild it may seem at first glance, it is possible as is winning the lotto how ever remote. |
I'd think there's a greater chance of you winning the lotto.
| Quote |
| unless as I said you are qualifed to make those remarks which sadly it seems you are far from it. |
I'm about as qualified to make remarks as you are.
| Quote |
| So maybe you could enlighten us with your ideas/thoughts instead of constantly knocking everyones else's as I seem to be struggling to find an original post from you on the board. |
Ok,
I'd like to see Baldonnel's infrastucture upgraded to complement the new equipment. I'd like to see at least one, & possibly two, extra CASAs for maritime patrol. I'd like to see the Cessnas replaced with something like a Caravan. Ideally I'd like 6 ML helis, my choice being the Puma/Coogar. However, since the AC's getting UH's I would like to see more than 6. I'd like to see 2 or 3 transport aircraft, either the C-295 or C-27J. I'm happy with the PC-9Ms in the training role. As for armed aircraft, if we wanted to push the boat out we could get a number of armed heli's (important if the AC is to operate abroad). Somewhere along the line the AC could get a light fighter for air defence, the TA-50 the Koreans are getting looks good on paper.
I'd also suggest getting UAV's for both the AC & NS.
If that's not good enough for you I could suggest getting Chinooks, Eurofighters, submarines, scud launchers etc. I could also suggest the EU pays for it.
Post by: clan on October 20, 2004, 10:36:33 pm
But with over a 160 people lying in corridors of Hospitals at the moment I cannot see defence spending getting much support from anyone. I also read Goldie Fish post on the Eithne again, and I cannot see how I miss interpreted it, when he asked a Naval Ensign about the tie down points on the heli deck he was told they were due to be removed before the helicopters could be flown of the deck again, when he asked what this meant he was told never say Never.
Is this not the same as saying they "might" fly from Eithne again.
But I like your thinking even if you don't like anyone else's
Post by: Imshi-Yallah on October 21, 2004, 10:29:03 am
Hospital waiting lists have nothing to do with funding of defence, secondly UAVs are a cheaper option.
What makes you think that an organisation struggling to fill its current establishment is going to suddenly meet a bigger requirement.
The Country is not full of air craft maintenance engineers willing to take a cut in their wage and live on little boaties in the atlantic, the ones serving in other countries even if they are willing to come back are bound by a little thing called contractual obligation and on finishing their contracts elsewhere are quite likely to have had their fill of full time boatie life.
What makes you think an Ensign in the NS is so knowledgable in the first place, as for never say never thats why they still sell candles, doesnt mean we're going to abandon electricity.
Post by: Dublin Spotter on October 21, 2004, 12:41:57 pm
"A reconfigured cockpit and specialized avionics software also are part of the retrofit package to facilitate the HH-65’s use in shipboard operations"
Is this not worth a look into, have the last couple upgraded, assigned to the Navy, base them own in "Haulbowline"
Therefore the new equipment coming online will be totally of use of the Air Corp and Army,
Just my 5 cent worth.
Post by: futurepilot on October 21, 2004, 01:06:17 pm
| Quote (Imshi-Yallah @ 21 Oct. 2004,10:29) |
| Hospital waiting lists have nothing to do with funding of defence |
Maybe not but can you imagine the uproar if Willie O`Dea announced today that the Air Corps was to get several hundred million for new Casa`s, Caravans, jets and the Navy was also to get sevral hundred million for a new fleet of 15 ships.
Naval helicopter ops should be brought back but as usual cost has to be considered. With defence spending so low , bringing Eithne up to par again, upgrading the Dauphins(which were completely unsuitable for the job in the first place) and training Air Corps pilots for naval ops , would be a huge drain on the Air Corps budget. Since the Casa`s are doing a great job, it would be a complete waste of resources to bring back naval heli ops.
Post by: clan on October 21, 2004, 01:34:03 pm
And Future Pilot is correct, imagine been stuck in a Bed in a corridor of A & E with Charlie Bird and his Microphone beside you reading a story about no money left for the Hospitals which is next to the story about the goverment spending 50m on 6 new helicopters.
Even if, they converted the Gazelle and upgraded one Dauphin for VIP work it would release two of the new Helicopters for Pure Air Corp/Military work.
Post by: Imshi-Yallah on October 21, 2004, 01:35:49 pm
Post by: FMolloy on October 21, 2004, 04:40:49 pm
| Quote |
| I certainly do not expect the EU to keep throwing money at us, but for certain projects they will if pushed and I have very very recent proof of that so in that respect I am qualified to make that remark. |
Did any of those certain projects include funding the NS or AC? Were any of those projects fixing the problems of a previous EU-funded white elephant that ran over budget, like Eithne?
| Quote |
| As for the 5 points you make, I cannot see any of them been much of a problem either, we have a country full of engineers of all descriptions doing this kind of work for other countries we could if we wished get them to do some work at home. |
We may have a country full of engineers, but unless they form a company & buy a shipyard they're unable to do anything. Unless of course you see them all converging on Haulbowline in some sort of mass wave of civic duty to do the work there.
Any work on Eithne would have to done abroad. Also, I'm no expert but the re-arrangement of the inside of the ship to facilitate the moving of avgas tanks sounds complicated & exspensive. I do not see how having the ability to operate a single heli from Eithne would justify that expense.
| Quote |
| But I like your thinking even if you don't like anyone else's |
I like other people's ideas when they make sense. The ideas I espoused for the AC are very much in line with the thinking of a number of people who post here & on other boards. I'm sorry if I don't seem original to you, but after posting on the two IMO boards, both of Frank's boards & a couple of others, I'm a bit tired of saying the same thing over & over again.
Post by: clan on October 21, 2004, 07:11:15 pm
I posted an idea, which was to be discussed, you did not like it so you trashed it as you do, but you fail on every count to offer reasonible discussion as you cannot back up any of your arguments with reasonable comments. Eithne might have had to go abroad for any alterations it might not. You clearly do not have the knowledge to answer that. If you do not like an idea, discuss why, do not make up reasons why it will not work. The idea might be out there with the fairies so what, reasonable discussion is what I thought this board was about.
Now we could go on and on, I say this you trash it I prove you wrong you trash something else. If that is all you have to do go somewhere else. Or we could get back to the topic in question which was "lets talk about the Navy again" which has had over 770 views and 55 replys so it is a hot topic.
Which people are interested in with some very good posts.
Post by: pilatus on October 21, 2004, 08:47:44 pm
and at about 6million you could have 2good navy dauphin with navy pilots flying from Haulbowline or why not use existing facilities at Bal or Cork airport near the navy base?
Post by: sealion on October 21, 2004, 09:22:47 pm
It makes me laugh when i see people making suggestions about basing Helis at Haulbowline. I would love to know where. The parade square could at a push accomodate one heli,but the proximity of the HF antanne may have something to say about that...Never mind the High Voltage power lines.
As for Cork,how successful have the air corps been with basing aircraft away from the don so far?
Shannon?
Finner?
Waterford?
Sligo?
Gormanstown?
Eithne has been in dry dock for the last month. She is being fitted with davits for high speed RIBs to replace the boarding boats which were removed about 5 years ago. it was supposed to be in for 2 weeks. That was the week after the Naval Family day...back at the beginning of september... The current skipper is keen to get a heli back on the helideck,but at this stage,none of the crew(apart from the rose tinted spectacle wearers fresh out of the Naval school) expect to see this. The only possibility is that one of the new LUH whether EC135 or A109 will make an odd visit,for familiarity purposes. But if this is the case,they will be doing so in calm seas,at anchor. The helideck is now a cargo deck,and the hardpopints and tiedowns which were installed for an overseas trip that never materialised,are there to stay.
The next generation of naval vessel may be equipped with a helideck,but naval ops of the type eithne was designed for,will probably not be seen again.
Post by: pilatus on October 21, 2004, 09:36:41 pm
Post by: sealion on October 21, 2004, 09:47:50 pm
Post by: Dublin Spotter on October 21, 2004, 10:10:22 pm
And as for tge required space that would be required, put in a CPO against the old Irish steel plant and that would give the required space along with the deeper berths for the "New" NS ships in the future.
Post by: sealion on October 21, 2004, 11:35:05 pm
Most of the site is contaminated with toxic and some radioactive waste.
The cleanup is a political hot potato,and in the meantime the DOD/NS do not want it. Estimated cost of cleanup is E6m.
Post by: tashkurgan on October 22, 2004, 09:14:22 am
Taking the Canadian diesel electric sub rescue as an example and the possible use of a ship-borne heli. I think people need to have experienced a 6-8M sea (conditions at the time) and then comment on the logic of ship-borne heli ops in those conditions.
Post by: FMolloy on October 23, 2004, 02:33:06 am
You said Eithne could easily be returned to flight status, I disputed this given the physical changes to Eithne & the loss of skills from the NS. To my mind you have not proven me wrong.
If you're not happy with what I write don't read it or complain to Frank. I'm going to continue to post here until I'm kicked off of I decide to give up.
Now let's talk about the AC getting spaceships, I'm sure that's easily done.
Post by: FMolloy on October 23, 2004, 02:40:47 am
Post by: pilatus on October 23, 2004, 10:37:37 am
Post by: paul g on October 23, 2004, 02:19:00 pm
on the whole EU funding issue, the truth clan is that we will start have to become contributors to funds for new countires, and will be expected to contruibute funds as well as effective assets in the comnig decade.
Post by: FMolloy on October 24, 2004, 03:31:24 am
Are they suitable? I don't know. Are they capable of operating in the Atlantic? I don't know. It's just a thought, feel free to rubbish it if you wish.
Post by: GoneToTheCanner on October 24, 2004, 03:10:49 pm
With regard to deploying outside Baldonnel, there has always been an institutional dislike of going "outside" in the Don.With,once,two bases in relatively close proximity, there was always a sentiment against putting aircraft and personnel into other bases on a permanent basis.
At it's worst, Donners didn't like doing it quite simply because of the disruption to their lives and the scant financial reward. Others disliked going to the Border or other deployments because they were reluctant to be put in a situation where they were expected to perform outside routine(and it got in the way of the nixers).
The "garrison" mentality went deep in the Don. On the other hand, a lot of people loved going "outside" because it gave them a break from the usual Don stuff. As far as the ship was concerned,a lot of people were quite happy never to go near it again. Personally, I regard it as an item of shame that a maritime nation has no sea-going helicopter ability.
For my 2c worth, the Navy (and Army) should have it's own independent air wing. It is certaainly not beyond impossible to set up a heicopter facility at Haulbowline or even on a land-based site near Cobh.
regards
S
p.s: Buy Lynx for the decks.
Post by: clan on October 25, 2004, 02:48:33 pm
But why do some people join the Air Corp if they are not flexible or up for something that is not routine. I think you hit the nail on the head, about us been a maritime nation we have the HPV and the Helicopter how ever badly they were designed for each other, and what ever improvements need to be made we should find some use for them some how somewhere.. I watched a programme recently which had the Britsh Army Air Corp Gazelle been used to collect Injured soliders.
The UAV is a good idea for both the NS and the Army.
Post by: Fouga on October 25, 2004, 11:22:26 pm
Post by: sealion on October 26, 2004, 04:53:16 am
| Quote (Fouga @ 25 Oct. 2004,23:22) |
| UAV's should have been here a long time ago.. IE Border Patrols etc |
The Security forces in NI were using UAVs back as early as 1996,while I was up there. Not great for patrolling,but good for surveillance.
Post by: Fouga on October 26, 2004, 01:00:56 pm
Post by: Stinger on October 26, 2004, 02:04:07 pm
Post by: John K on October 26, 2004, 11:00:05 pm
Post by: GoneToTheCanner on October 26, 2004, 11:38:22 pm
Clan, the average Donner doesn't/didn't do "military" like the devotees from the Army.It didn't take long for anyone joining the Don to develop an "anti" attitude,either deliberately or accidentally.People were/are professional enough when it came to keeping the aircraft going, but,basically, couldn't give a sh1t for any military stuff.Enthusiasm for such was not encouraged among the techs.A few weekend guards or an unwanted stint in the Depot knocked that out of one, pretty quick.The Don has always had an "apart" attitude, which didn't endear it to the soldiery or the boat people.
regards
GttC
Post by: sealion on October 27, 2004, 04:53:04 pm
| Quote (Stinger @ 26 Oct. 2004,14:04) |
| I think the idea of the Navy acquiring the old Irish steel plant is a good idea. At least it would be available to the service in the event of the service ever wishing to expand. It would be a tragedy if such an opportunity was passed up |
Current Cleanup of the Former Ispat Plant is in the region of €30m(estimate) which is being paid for by the state. Mittal in th emeantime has just become the Largest steel producer in the world.
No plans are being made for the site until the cleanup is complete.
Post by: clan on October 27, 2004, 07:42:33 pm
Post by: Buran on October 28, 2004, 01:19:27 pm
But i think id represent a huge amount of the staff in the Don, in that i wanted to work in aerospace, but in this country, its very limited so the Air Corps is a real opportunity.
It not really the same with the army if you grew up always wanting to work on heavy machinery etc.
Also the Air Corps/military maybe seen by some as the pinnacle of aerospace, whereas i dont think you would have the same idea about army machinery if you were that way inclined (as in heavy plant/formula 1/etc)
So i can understand if some people at the Don see the military side of things as a side effect of working there.
Post by: John K on October 30, 2004, 11:08:59 pm
Post by: pilatus on November 01, 2004, 10:56:07 pm
Post by: John K on November 04, 2004, 02:05:55 pm
Post by: John K on November 04, 2004, 02:11:46 pm