Author Topic: What new Helicopters?  (Read 1012 times)

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Offline FiannaFail

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What new Helicopters?
« on: November 07, 2003, 10:03:08 pm »
With the the AIIIs and Dauphins coming to their end of their natural lives within the IAC, which helicoptes should the Dept of Defence replace them with? And what should their roles be?
Any suggestions?
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Offline Imshi-Yallah

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2003, 08:14:58 pm »
In terms of Helicopters that would be of the greatest benefit to the IAC and DF as a whole I'd say key purchases would be for either a mixed fleet of sister types, i.e. IAR 330 TTHs and EC 725 SAR/MPA (or H-60/H-92) which is a perfectly plausible option both in terms of cost and practiceability; I call this the enhancement model.
Alternatively I would suggest a baseline fleet of 212s to provide TTH support with the contiuned lease or purchase of second hand Sea King types, to provide SAR/MPA and expanded TTH once its value becomes appreciable to politicos.
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Dante Alighieri

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2003, 11:29:48 pm »
Oh, here we go! There are several schools of thought on this... but the best one goes along the line of... blackhawks! I can hear derisory laughter out there already, but read on. The recent thinking has all been on the line of two types, a Medium and Light helicopter. The best medium would probably have been the S92 IMHO. The best light is the EC 145, BUT, the total cost of 5 MLH plus 6 LUH works out at c107 mil. The cost of 6 S70 Blackhawks and 3 Jayhawks is c105 mil. You end up with a credible trooplift capability (approx 18 equipped per heli, i.e. 108 troops in one lift) and an equally capable SAR capacity. In fact, jayhawks can reach 250 nm + offshore with their external tanks. The disadvantage with the SAR role is they aren't designed to lift 15 survivors, but how often does that happen? A SAR jayhawk has in the past lifted 24 survivors in one go! Also, if you are aware that there will be more than 15 survivors, scramble a second aircraft. You get better commonality of parts, reduced training costs because you only have to train on one type, one spare parts pool, the list goes on. Sikorsky could have interim machines on the ramp in Baldonnel in less than 3 months after signing the contract (the less said about this the better) and the production run is currently churning out 12 airframes a month. They are in service with 27 airforces worldwide, so you get a proven type, not a prototype, as with the S92, or even the new Cougar. You don't even need to tender, because under EU law, you can purchase the troop carriers as an immediate security requirement for the EU presidency. Your SAR birds then become a logical extension of the fleet. Now, pick holes in that lot!

Fouga

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2003, 12:47:08 am »
FF, You claimed you knew what we are/were (Laughs out loud) getting, so my question is why did you start this in the first place? ':p'

Offline Silver

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2003, 11:56:58 pm »
You certainly make a convincing argument there scorpy !
I can't disagree with it !

However, on purely economic grounds, I can't see it happening.
With the current situation of the Coast Guard having almost full control of SAR, I reckon the case for medium-lift helis (in govt circles) is weakened.
With the discussion in another thread re the upgrading of the Dauphins (also a convincing argument!), it is a strong possibility that this will be the case - i.e. upgrade/expand the Dauphin fleet and replace the AIII's with a similar utility heli.

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2003, 12:16:02 am »
Yup!

It all boils down to money! But wait! Didn't I hear somewhere that we just made 41 mil from the sale of Ballincollig barracks? And wasn't Gormanstown closed down with the intention of selling it and putting the proceeds back into equipment? Oh yes, that's right, that land was signed over to Dept of Social Affairs as an interdepartmental transfer to allow them to develop social housing. I ask you, social housing? On some of the most valuable land the Dept of Defence posesses? Come on! That land alone would have paid for this on it's own, forget the possible proceeds of a sale of Cathal Brugha. What about Clancy? What about the money from Castleblaney? Sorry. Rant over!

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2003, 12:19:05 am »
Sorry, Silver. Nice to meet ya. I hear only good things!

Offline Silver

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2003, 12:27:22 am »
Valid points about sale proceeds, scorpy - I wonder where are they going ?
The new Learjet ? Punchestown exhibition centre ?

The cynic in me says very little will actually go where it was supposed to go i.e. Air Corps, Naval Service or Army (please note the order of importance I give the re-equipment  '<img'>  )

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2003, 02:01:15 am »
Well, the other option is to go second hand. Keep costs, and performance to the minimum usable. If you don't need to do SAR, then don't get a SAR machine. If you don't need Air Ambulance, then forget those options. Get a basic, green helicopter from someone reliable (not E Block) who is downsizing or modernising and forget adding anything. Just overhaul the airframe, buy a bunch of modern engines and look at the service lists to see what went wrong with them before the IAC got them and fix those snags. The guys on IMO would endorse this approach for combat jets, I'm sure. Try the same approach for helis. The French military would be a great place to start. The Puma the IAC had before was Chilean (Sorry, I may be wrong)? Why not look to th UK to offload some Seakings or Pumas to us. Even ex-civil Pumas would do as they would finish thier life in the IAC. The parts are there already, certainly enough to keep 6 or 8 going for a long time. Look at what they achieved with 8 Alouettes. Keep the Dauphins as the utility, but modernise them with appropriate expenditure to their usage ie. no SAR, no 4 axis, no hoist etc. If that approach allows purchase of more airframes, for the same expenditure, then I'm all for it. A fleet of 6 basic modernised Dauphins and 6 basic overhauled Pumas would be a force to be reckoned with, and may even allow us to deploy some overseas on occasion. Let the civvies do the jobs that dilute the military ethos. Let the IAC get back to basics, the job it was formed to do - defend the state and support our troops.

Offline Silver

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2003, 05:04:56 pm »
Going secondhand may well be the best approach.
We could chose whatever heli we wanted and no need for any tendering process !
There must be lots of Puma's and similar helis in storage?

However, having said that, we could get some good deals if the DoD had their heads screwed on    ':angry:'

clan mentioned in another thread (i.e.Dauphins) that in recent times Eurocopter were offering NEW Euricreils (Twin Squirrels) for €1 million each !!!
€7 million would have replaced the Alouette fleet !!!
(The DoD would probably have got an even better deal by 'buying in bulk')

Offline alpha foxtrot 07

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What new Helicopters?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2003, 07:36:16 pm »
if your going second hand there are plenty of vacume sealed blackhawks seastallions hueys cobra's chinnoks in the mojave desert just waiting to sold and the american's would be only to happy to sell to the irish. i seem to remember a rumor floating the don years ago about the US offering to sell a 100 hueys with spare parts for about $10 dollar a airframe. dont know if its true but it did the rounds
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