Let's talk about the navy again!

[Fouga]

"yes the corps is moving onto a new fleet of choppers shortly but so few are being aqquired that it would be extremly hard to fly them of ships because of their ARMY SUPPORT role not a NAVY SUPPORT role"

Why would it be hard for them to assist the Army in terms of Support could this help the Army better i think so as they would have limited Amphibious Assault training thereby utilising all three wings of the DF I.E Navy to house Army offshore before Assault and Heli's to transport them in and out. That would be great training methinks.

[sealion]

Quote (pilatus @ 11 Oct. 2004,18:44)

yes the corps is moving onto a new fleet of choppers shortly but so few are being aqquired that it would be extremly hard to fly them of ships because of their ARMY SUPPORT role not a NAVY SUPPORT role and secondly the dauphin-navy issue was not consigned to the history books because of the delivery of the CASAs.while the dauphins where flying from Eithne before the CASAs arrived 3King Air200s were flying fisherie protection.the Dauphins were used to put navy personnel onboard fishing trawlers so they could inspect them for themselves because there is no point in knowing were a vessel is if you dont know what it is doing!they also were used for security ops such as assisting the navy in drugs and arms interception etc.they would have 20years service ahead of them if upgraded.so yes there is logic behind upgrading.and the Eithne can operate other types such as the lynx A109(and i beleive there is a picture of a us coastguard dolphin landing on Eithne in the database!)

A few errors there,hate to nitpick.

Only 2 SKA200s were used for fishery protection. The other was,and still is used for VIP transport/Multi engine conversion.

Dauphins never carried Naval Service boarding parties aboard trawlers. Its impossible in most cases,and impractical in others,unless you fastrope. Naval boarding parties were never trained for this. I Know of no naval force that uses the winch to lower boarding teams,and most trawlers in irish waters have little if any clear deck space where a heli could land.The Dauphins carry Air Corps crewmen,and they didn't do boardings either.

I dont remember any case where the dauphin assisted in any interception of either arms or drugs.

The Dauphin/eithne connection is as good as gone.
The Glide slope indicator has been removed,
the deck handling equipment has not been used for at least 7 years,and is showing all the signs of it.
The Helideck no longer has a non slip surface.
The fold down railings are too heavy to raise in rough seas,as there is a good chance a crewman could fall over the side in the process,
The Air corps accomodation has been converted into Washrooms and locker space.
The current skipper was one of the last officers who trained as FDO,and would like to see the return of the heli,but to operate effectively,it needs to be permanently attached to Eithne,and the air corps crews are reluctant to agree to this.
The Helideck has found a new role as a storage area for Containers and vehicles for overseas trips.

The A109 is not navalised. None of the type has been fitted with a harpoon for deck landings. USCG types are shore based.

The closest they ever came to boarding from a helicopter was when an Air Corps dauphin transferred a salvage team to the Yarrawonga back in the late 80s.

[Silver]

On a related note, how come the French and Dutch (?) can operate (single-engined) Alouettes from their navy ships ?

[clan]

Is it a case of simply we cannot be bothered. The Eithne could I am sure be easily converted back to a HPV. This combined with our new role within the ERF and existing role within the UN. Could the Eithne not be used exclusively for ERF and UN roles with a Dauphin on board, Hire a Ferry/Merchant ship if and when we deploy overseas with the Eithne to be used as protection/2 nd Auxilary ship. Try to get the UN/EU to pay for her up keep and mission cost. Replace her in the Irish fleet with a new P50 class of vessel. The pilots be trained from the NS service or recruited into the NS service afresh. I bet, I am nearly positive on this if you put an add for navel pilots in the British Armed forces mag, you will get  Irish Pilots or 2nd generation pilots applying. It would mean more overseas missions, more hands on role within the UN(Navel Context) and a bigger profile for the NS.
So the UN/EU pay for the upgrade on the Aircraft/ the ships costs crews wages etc. And we get a new PV.
Don't shoot me just an idea.
Don't shoot me just a thought,

[FMolloy]

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The Eithne could I am sure be easily converted back to a HPV.

I'm trying not to sound smart here, but unless you're well acquainted with the changes made to Eithne you can't be sure.

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Could the Eithne not be used exclusively for ERF and UN roles with a Dauphin on board

No, it can't. The NS does not have enough vessels as it is, and there are older ships that need replacing ahead of Eithne.

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Don't shoot me just an idea.

Bang.

[sealion]

By the way,navel is the place on your belly that gathers fluff,also known as Bellybutton.


I assume you mean  NAVAL

[Fouga]

'>

well said Sealion

[clan]

So Sorry Sealion.I say Naval once in the whole post and I spell it wrong. Typiccalle

FMolloy my assumption that the Eithne can be converted back into a HPV is based on Observations made by serving Eithne personnel, so I take there word for it as I hope they know what they are talking about.
True, I am sure she is well down the list for replacement and that was the jist of my post. But what I meant and I was not clear about this was that Eithnes replacement should not in any way take away from the modernisation programme but should be carried out parallel to it as a separate programme. Which would combine the EU/UN needs plus our own and be funded separetly ie, total cost by the UN/EU including running costs. The ship would basically be under Irish command, financed by Brussels/UN crewed by Irish- and maybe some Europeans. This way, the ship gets used for what it was intended for, the Dauphins get retained and used in a Naval enviroment. Our NS crews get much needed and I am sure wanted foreign adventures plus we get a new Ship for Irish waters for free(effectively) without taking away urgent requirements from moderisation of the fleet.

[paul g]

Clan,

The UN/EU wouldn't pay a penny towards any sort of ship for the naval service,the EU, has taken on lots of new poor members. We are now a rich country, don't qualify for funding anymore.  the truth is that the money is there, but not the political will.

[clan]

With the New ERF, surely they will have to put there hands into the Pockets of the French/Germans and give us some Yo Yo's. With us been the Western Flank of the EU and our greater commitment to the UN. Plus they gave a shed load of cash to Portugal last year for Helicopters, they should spread a bit more west.
I think you may be right about the money is there but unless somone pushes the right people at the right time we will get nothing. But then again the irish love something for nothing, so if they got off there collective Be-Hinds and asked nicely you never know.

[Fouga]

CLAN-THE DAUPHINS GET RETAINED..

There are only 2 left this thread has gone on long enough. 1 crashed and the rest were/are being mothballed for parts and they will soon be gone. come on guys keep it real. We should be looking forward to what we will be getting. Hopefully the UH-60. Fact of the matter is the Alouette's are prob getting more airtime than the Dauphins because of their troop transport role. An officer told me that they are up more now because the army is utilising them more now that SAR is gone they have more free time to train with the army.

[Fouga]

NB The "Officer" is an Army officer not Air Corps

[IAS]

Clan, where have you been, the Irish have received more per capita than anyone else in the EU, why do you think all the new members where so interested in how we did it?

I think Paul G is absolutely correct on this one, we have had almost everyting susidised up to now, our total Naval Service, the Casas and part of the Dauphins (not too sure on that one), it's now time to pay our way, after all we keep claiming to be the Celtic (toothless) Tiger. Remember when it comes to Defence we spend about 0.8% GDP whilst the EU (NATO) average is about 1.2% with some countries much more (including France and Germany).

IAS

[clan]

IAS, I agree we have had enough and spent it unwisely at that, as we have nothing I can think of to show for it. But it is just like us to be brass necks and ask for more and if we can get away with why not. I agree we should be spending more of our own money on defence but as we all know that is not going to happen. It is great to look forward to six new helicopters, but six is not enough, they might have the combined lift of the 13 we currently have. We need to be realistic, with new roles within the UN and the ERF we need more of everything. And it is just like us brass neckers to say yeah, but you pay for it. Military spend in Europe is going through the roof, I see it everyday , I was stupid enough to answer the call come back to Ireland  as the great the Celtic Tiger is here and I was even worse to stay when it went T*ts up. And in my industry it still is crap. It was only an idea, and I am sure it has been thought of or tried already.
Cheers Fouga, I do remember you crying and whinging yourself about the Dauphins. But then again retaining the 2 Naval Dauphins was only a small part of my post

[FMolloy]

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FMolloy my assumption that the Eithne can be converted back into a HPV is based on observations made by serving Eithne personnel, so I take there word for it as I hope they know what they are talking about.

Sealion's earlier list of changes to Eithne's fight equippment doesn't sound like things that can be easily resolved. You should also check out htpmurphy's comments on Eithne over on IMO. He served on her & mentions a design flaw in her avgas tanks that lead to contamination.

There's also the fact that the NS no longer has the skills to operate a heli at sea, such skills can't be regained over night.

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total cost by the UN/EU including running costs. The ship would basically be under Irish command, financed by Brussels/UN crewed by Irish- and maybe some Europeans.

Complete pie in the sky. The EU is finished giving us cash, as others have said, and the UN hasn't been too quick with the cash in the past.

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But it is just like us to be brass necks and ask for more and if we can get away with why not.

Do you honestly believe they'd give us more cash?

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We need to be realistic

The Naval Service is operating 8 vessels when it really needs 12-15 to do it's job properly. If the NS was given another ship, outside of replacing an older one, would it realistic to expect them to devote Eithne exclusively to UN/EU RRF duties?