Let's talk about the navy again!

[Pink Panther]

Silver,NO.Not our SAR area. As i have posted in a previous thread the incident happened in Clyde coast guards SAR region,not Ireland's .It was the UK's responsibility.The Irish coastguard offered their assets inc 2 X S-61's ,that offer for what ever reason was not taken up .Clan, I agree with alot of what your saying,but its not for us, as you put it, to take control, the facts of the matter are it was inside the UK's jurisdiction.All you can do is offer help.

[Imshi-Yallah]

Quote (Silver @ 09 Oct. 2004,23:19)

I read about the sub incident in 'The Press' newspaper here in New Zealand. It stated that the sub was "160 miles off the Irish coast". Well within our territorial waters, correct ? Our SAR area ,yes ?   It also stated that "an Irish naval vessel had to limp back to port ..... due to heavy seas". What it meant by "limp" I don't know   '> I still say that the two navalised Dauphins should be retained, upgraded (c.1.5 million euros each) and retained for NS use - be it from Eithne or a future NS vessel. Much cheaper than buying new navalised helis at a future date ! If/when the NS gets it's new transport ship (to support UN missions etc) helis should be part of it's spec - to move supplys, medivac troops, etc. It would also make the NS more capable in SAR situations like the sub incident. What if this incident had been another Air India disaster ? Yes, the CG helis would respond - but a heli equipped NS vessel would be a major help in such a situation.

Why? even if it could take off, the heli wouldnt be any more useful than a coast based MLH if even that useful.

[pym]

The whole experiment with naval aviation failed, not so much due to the equipment, but because the pilots in the Air Corps didnt like being stuck on a ship for a few weeks. Refurbishing the Dauphins wouldnt deal with this underlying issue.

It might make a comeback in 10+ years time if a troop transport ship was procured - but that isn't very likely, I can't see a government having the resolve to buy a ship and kit it out adequately for overseas missions.

In the absense of medium lift helicopters and dedicated transport aircraft a transport ship is pie in the sky

[pilatus]

who's to say that any new attempt at naval support ops would be flown by air corps pilots?naval cadets could join and serve onboard the ships to get a feel of sea going life and then under take flying training! '>

[pym]

In my opinion this country is too small to have 2 different, poorly equipped military flying services.

Why divide the scant equipment and expertise? Being an Air Corps pilot is one of the most desirable jobs in this country for a lot of people - if anyone joining up today has a problem with serving at sea for a few weeks then they shouldnt be allowed enter service.

Anyway this is a pointless discussion - from what I've heard about the Eithne it's most likely no helicopter will ever fly from her again. And the likelyhood of another HPV entering service or a troop transport ship seems remote.

[Fouga]

When it all comes down to the Crunch you need the Manpower and this is something the Navy sadly doesnt have alot of.

[202]

It's one thing talking about future equipment purchases but its another to trust that our existing (and modern) gear is quite up to the job.  Why did the newest addition to the fleet have to turn back? We are not talking about some second-hand minesweeper here but a new and commissioned vessel designed for Irish offshore conditions. Yes, sea conditions were rough early in the week but not abnormally so by Atlantic standards so what is the story with LE Roisin?

[Silver]

PP,
You are correct. UK's area.

I still believe in the re-fitted Dauphin plan.
And yes pilatus, naval cadets could be trained to fly naval helis - that would be the proper way to do it !

Strange about Roisin alright ?!
However, somebody on IMO said that it was a freak wave, and that these things can happen even to the best ships?!

[Frank]

Hi Guys,

As far as I know the reason the L.E. Roisin turned back was because the sea conditions were so rough that part of the ships stabilisation system was ripped out of the hull and the ship started taking on water, forcing it to turn around and return to Donegal for emergency repairs.

As was said in a previous post, Mother Nature is a powerful force.


Regards,

Frank.

[pym]

Sorry but I cant see the logic behind refitting the Dauphins when the Air Corps are moving onto a new fleet of helicopters so soon. And why continue to operate the 20 year old Dauphins off a ship that was designed for a Lynx? Their original role so far as I understand was to aid the task of fisheries protection - that role has been consigned to history since the Casa's delivery. So once again why have them? For scenarios like the recent Submarine tradgedy? The Dauphins probably couldnt have even taken off from the deck, if the sea conditions were as bad as reported.

The Dauphin is too limited and the Eithne as far as I know cannot be upgraded to take anything more useful... If a new Helicopter carrying vessel was on the cards for the Navy then the Air Corps should logically go with the Blackhawk and put the Seahawk in service on any such future vessel. But like I said earlier - pie in the sky....

The Dauphins are history

[sealion]

Quote (Frank @ 10 Oct. 2004,22:40)

Hi Guys, As far as I know the reason the L.E. Roisin turned back was because the sea conditions were so rough that part of the ships stabilisation system was ripped out of the hull and the ship started taking on water, forcing it to turn around and return to Donegal for emergency repairs. As was said in a previous post, Mother Nature is a powerful force. Regards, Frank.

This is the second time this has happened to Roisin.

The company who built her(and made the initial repairs,which happened during sea trials)have since gone into liquidation.

L.E. Niamh is a far superior ship,with better seakeeping qualities. Roisin it seems,was for the most part a monday morning job. The design itself is supposed to be able to operate in the Indian Oceans Typhoon season,so an atlantic swell shouldnt be an issue.
I understand that it was only when the NS were sure that no further loss of life was imminent that they decided to turn back,while L.E Aoife(earlier sturdier design) and L.E Niamh continued to the scene.
However freak waves are just that. Ships have been sunk by freak waves. We should be thankful that there was no further loss of life during this tragic event.

[202]

Well a fishing trawler was able to stay on station during the event ... and freak wave is too convenient a term to throw up when analysing an episode such as this ... the Atlantic can get rough and waves get big, it happens all the time -- and the point remains that unless a wave was of tsunami proportions, a new commissioned vessel should be able to make a better fist of tough but not exceptional seagoing conditions.

[Fouga]

with regards to the Dauphins i think only 2 are now airworthy and the third and fourth have/are being mothballed and scavenged for parts as you cant get some of the parts off aerospatiale/eurocopter as the Dauphin built for the IAC was the first to be fitted with kit not seen in other Dauphin/Panthers.

[pilatus]

Quote (pym @ 10 Oct. 2004,13:54)

Sorry but I cant see the logic behind refitting the Dauphins when the Air Corps are moving onto a new fleet of helicopters so soon. And why continue to operate the 20 year old Dauphins off a ship that was designed for a Lynx? Their original role so far as I understand was to aid the task of fisheries protection - that role has been consigned to history since the Casa's delivery. So once again why have them? For scenarios like the recent Submarine tradgedy? The Dauphins probably couldnt have even taken off from the deck, if the sea conditions were as bad as reported. The Dauphin is too limited and the Eithne as far as I know cannot be upgraded to take anything more useful... If a new Helicopter carrying vessel was on the cards for the Navy then the Air Corps should logically go with the Blackhawk and put the Seahawk in service on any such future vessel. But like I said earlier - pie in the sky.... The Dauphins are history

yes the corps is moving onto a new fleet of choppers shortly but so few are being aqquired that it would be extremly hard to fly them of ships because of their ARMY SUPPORT role not a NAVY SUPPORT role and secondly the dauphin-navy issue was not consigned to the history books because of the delivery of the CASAs.while the dauphins where flying from Eithne before the CASAs arrived 3King Air200s were flying fisherie protection.the Dauphins were used to put navy personnel onboard fishing trawlers so they could inspect them for themselves because there is no point in knowing were a vessel is if you dont know what it is doing!they also were used for security ops such as assisting the navy in drugs and arms interception etc.they would have 20years service ahead of them if upgraded.so yes there is logic behind upgrading.and the Eithne can operate other types such as the lynx A109(and i beleive there is a picture of a us coastguard dolphin landing on Eithne in the database!)

[Fouga]

That Pic is actually of a Dauphin landing on a US Vessel Pilatus.