Willie O' Dea, Read This

[Fouga]

http://www.ukar.co.uk/board/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=8393


Romania like? Aint we supposedly richer?

[Old Redeye]

Are you seriously proposing that Ireland spend enormous sums on absoloutley unnecessary F-16 fighters??  Why?  Better photo ops?  More dazzling airshow performances than we get from mere PC-9's?

There is no justification for fighters of any stripe for Ireland. Yes, the government should spend a little more money on the IAC to make it a viable component of Irish defenense and foreign policy.  

In order:  
1. additional Support Helicopters - 4-5 NH-90's or at least four more AB-139's
2. a real airlifter - C-130J-30 or at least a C-295
3. replacement multi-engine trainer/MATS(240) - B200/350
4. mid-life upgrade for the CN-235 MPA's
4. new MATS jet - Bombardier Global 5000
5. an additional EC-135 (optional)

[futurepilot]

Ireland does need a fast jet fleet of some kind. Obviously there are more pressing needs like those propsed in the post above but do we really want to still be relying on the RAF in 10/20/30 etc years time to protect our airspace???

[sealion]

FYI Romania also recently bought a number of frigates from the Royal Navy. They are undergoing a transition that will allow them to operate more efficiently with their NATO neighbours.

Ireland has no such requirement.

[clan]

Willie is the MOD, he does not make decisions on what we buy and don't buy the suits makes those decisions based on recomendations from there military advisors and using the results of any tender, he just signs the contract. Example, we should be buying Timoney products, in fact we should be designing our own products with Timoney other nations can why can't we. Reason, Army top brass and the Suits. I doubt if Willie or Michael were even aware of the amount of cheap second hand equipment we have been offered. Remember the DOD had a budget surplus last year i.e they did not spend all there allocated budget. Funny enough the amount was the same as it would cost to re-fit two Dauphins.

[pilatus]

but romania already has a jet fighter fleet that needs to be replaced!we do not that is the difference!they might as well replace it at little a price as possible than spend billions on a fleet of brand spanking new shiny f16block60s or jas39c/d gripens!

[Old Redeye]

"Ireland does need a fast jet fleet of some kind."

What for?  No air threat to Ireland exists or can be realistically postulated for the next 20 years - the life of any new aircraft purchase. What other requirment is there?  Will Ireland, like Romania, join NATO and therefore require both an integrated air defense capability and a deployable, NATO interoperable precision strike capability?  Not a chance.    

New equipment programs must be based on carefully researched requirements.  Anything else is irresponsible.  Roughly estimated, somewhere between US$55M and US$100M is needed to provide the IAC the capabilities needed to adequately participate in international operations as a component of the EU Battlegroup program.  That means more Support Helicopters and Airlift - not fast jets.  

Just getting this much needed funding will be a challenge.  Asking for a hundred million to buy and maintain a hand-full of second hand fast jets with a simple air-to-air capability that will spend their lives boring holes in sky and attending air shows is absoloutely ludicrous and would evoke deserved scorn from public and parliment.

[clan]

While Jets may not be top of the list of Priorities they should still be on the list. Our troops need to train with fast aircraft flying over head, they need to know the levels of noise etc that will become part of what they might getting into with the battlegroups. As for not having air thread, we might we don't know. Does the UK have a realistic air threat!!!! I don't think so, same with France , Germany, Sweden, Switzerland etc
We have trainers, that is all to secure the pilots interest and for future generations of recruits they need something to aim for. While they are low on the priority list, do not discount the need for them. But if I had Usd 100m, to spend they would be down the list and second hand that 100m would be taken with Helicopters of which we need more and transport of which we have none.

[Fouga]

Quote (Old Redeye @ 02 Nov. 2005,06:18)

No air threat to Ireland exists or can be realistically postulated for the next 20 years -

The East European country prefers to buy the most advanced fighter jets available on the market yet the price tag for the newest F-16 is likely to pierce a hole in Bucharest's pocket.


Does Romania have a threat? Eh NO! The point im making is that we are better off than Romania money wise yet they can afford F-16's Come on! "the price tag for the newest F-16 is likely to pierce a hole in Bucharest's pocket."

They dont really seem bothered about money there do they?

[pym]

Quote (Fouga @ 02 Nov. 2005,10:20)

Quote (Old Redeye @ 02 Nov. 2005,06:18) No air threat to Ireland exists or can be realistically postulated for the next 20 years - The East European country prefers to buy the most advanced fighter jets available on the market yet the price tag for the newest F-16 is likely to pierce a hole in Bucharest's pocket. Does Romania have a threat? Eh NO! The point im making is that we are better off than Romania money wise yet they can afford F-16's Come on! "the price tag for the newest F-16 is likely to pierce a hole in Bucharest's pocket." They dont really seem bothered about money there do they?

Fouga, you're being grossly over simplistic.

First and foremost: Romania has operated fast jets since they were first produced, we have never.

Romania has a large military ethos. We do not.

Romania is a member of the Nato alliance. We are not.

Romania produces over 50% of its own oil needs. We produce none.

All told, they still have a GDP $50 billion dollars in excess of our own.

Their economy is actually one of the fastest growing in europe.

Your statement "They dont really seem bothered about money there do they?" is utter nonsense.

So basically, all this adds up to why theyre buying F-16's and we arent.

And if you ask me, I'd rather the government spend billions on solving transport and health system problems than on fast jets. Although as Redeye has stated, we need helicopters and lots of them.

[Old Redeye]

This is what Ireland needs.  A C-130J-30, but the price of about $US65 million will probably put off those who have to come up with the money.

[Old Redeye]

That said, a CASA C-295 would be an adequate airlifter at about $US25 million.

[clan]

Why do we always have to buy brand new equipment, both of those aircraft I am sure could be sourced second hand or very similar. Same with the Helicopters and everything else to be honest.

[pilatus]

this is kinda going off topic but even a turkish built CN235M!they are alot cheaper at about 12mil a pop!

[Old Redeye]

Used is fine if quality can be assured - like buying a used car.  Generally speaking, new aircraft are preferred because they can remain in service longer - say 20+ years vs. 10, with obvious impacts on expenditures.  

In this particulary case, there are no more used Hecules left on the market with enough life left in them, even after a typically $35 million upgrade.  They've all been snapped up.  And there are not yet any used CN-235/C-295 aircraft on the market.  As for a Turkish-built CN-235, that would be a lot better airlift capaility than the IAC has now.  But, a C-295 offers considerably more in terms of range and payload.