Author Topic: Airlifter?  (Read 3261 times)

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Offline Old Redeye

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« on: January 19, 2006, 05:04:45 pm »
Per pdoff in another thread: "I dont think the GIV is gonna be replaced anytime soon as its proposed to totally refit the interior(fixtures and fittings) soon due to years of wear."

Okay, now that we can put the question of a new MATS a/c to bed, what about an all-important airlifter?  The C-130J ($65 million each) order book is full, with 45 yet to build, not including the probability of 16 for Canada.  Lockheed can't promise a new delivery now before 2010-11.  C-295 ($25 M) deliveries are running about two years from order -  Venezuelan and Brazilian orders could increase delivery times.   CN-235-300 ($17M) may be a bit quicker, but not much capability there.

RNLAF is getting two Derco/Marshalls re-build 130H's from the US boneyard -scheduled for delivery in 2007 for $30-35M each.  May sound attractive, but lots of poetential technical problems and delays, plus there are just about no low time 130 airframes left in the world.  These two have sat out stripped and dismembered since 1992.

Other options? Thoughts?  Insider perspectives?

Offline Spook

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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 07:00:53 pm »
I'd agree that second hand C130's are not the way to go..Sri Lanka bought 2 or 3 ex RAF C130K's a couple of years ago,and all are wfu...the most logical would be to buy a couple of C295, all the advantages you get with a new a/c.
  A cheap option might be to buy a couple of ex italian G222,that have been replaced by C27J's...a downside might be their RR tyne engines   '<img'>

Offline Guinness

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2006, 09:45:22 am »
Redeye,

If the RNLAF can rebuild 2 old Martinair DC-10's into state-of-the-art KDC-10 tankers where even the USAF is interested in I'm not worried about the new C-130's.
Both airframes are ex US Navy and these airframes just don't have that much airtime as their USAF counterparts.

A lot of the modefication will be done in The Netherlands.

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Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2006, 02:12:26 pm »
Poland to get US C-130Es
GRZEGORZ HOLDANOWICZ JDW Correspondent
Warsaw

Poland is set to acquire five upgraded ex-US Air Force Lockheed Martin C-130E tactical transport aircraft.

The procurement is funded by US Government Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and consists of spare engines, an avionics upgrade, centre wing replacement, ground handling equipment and post-delivery management. The value of the programme was set at USD82.5 million; including USD7.3 million for additional self-protection systems, primarily missile-warning systems.

The refurbished C-130Es will fit into the USAF logistics system, with a common avionics architecture, digital flight-data recorders and maintenance records. The aircraft are expected to remain in service for 15 years.

The self-defence package will include AN/ALE-47 chaff and flare dispensers and a missile warning system, for which the EADS Defence Electronics AN/AAR-60 Missile Launch Detection System (MILDS), already installed on four Polish CASA C-295M light transport aircraft, is likely to be preferred.

Deliveries of the early-1970s aircraft, which retired from service in February 2005, will begin in November 2007 and conclude in August 2009.

The procurement is key to Polish plans to improve deployability and support new Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52M+ fighter aircraft as well as reducing the flight hours of the country's eight EADS CASA C-295Ms.

The new 14th Air Transport Squadron is to be formed for the C-130Es in 2006 or 2007 at Powidz Air Base in central Poland. This squadron, along with the 13th Squadron of Krakow-Balice, which operates C-295M and PZL M-28 Bryza aircraft, will operate under the umbrella of the new 3rd Air Transport Brigade to be formed in Powidz later in 2006.

The procurement is described by the government as a temporary solution prior to the purchase of new airlifters.

Offline Hess

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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 10:46:53 am »
Anybody for the AN-70 at around $50 per a/c? The delivery time for the new Airbus A400m is sometime around 2015, if orderd now,and a cost of $80!
"There is no reason why the poor and wayward should not experience the full effect of air power" - Hess 2005

Offline pilatus

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 04:52:07 pm »
C27j!far better plane than C295 in the tactical role!
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Offline Fouga23

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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2006, 05:51:36 pm »
I'm curious about the A400. Belgium allready bought some but the first one yet has to be build :s
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Offline pilatus

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2006, 09:40:56 am »
the A400M if it actually get delivered in time to other airforces we still wouldnt be able to get any till at least about 2016,as the order book has had malaysia chile and south africa added to the list on top of the consortium which developed it!i can see it turning out like the eurofighter,being full of unexpected problems which EADS are still having problems ironing out!
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Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 02:38:33 pm »
Pilatus,

It's really a toss-up as to whether the C-295 or C-27J is the better tactical airlifter.  295 carries more weight farther and is cheaper - the C-27J carries more volume in a higher, shorter cabin.  Both are fine aircraft.  The 295 has an advantage in terms of aircrew and technician standardization, and the existing support realationship with CASA.  That said, it all boils down to the best offer.  Will CASA make a better deal in conjunction with the CN-235MPA mid-life upgrade to -300 standard with 295 avionics, FITS and new sensors?  Probably. Will a C-27J offer come down low enough to be competetive, particularly given the necessity to implement an expensive new trainign and support structure?  Probably not.

Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2006, 03:13:02 pm »
OOOps!  What this aging Redeye meant to say is that the C-27J carries slightly more weight slightly farther in a shorter, higher cabin, while th C-295 carries more volume in a longer, lower cabin.  In practrical terms this translates into more pallets, vehicles or people in the 295 within broadly similar range envelope - arguably making the 295 "better", since volume is generally more important than weight in airlift ops.  Neither will be carrying armored vehicles, and neither can carry a significant load very far outside of Europe without stopping for gas.  But, an examination of requirments shows this is adequate capability for expenditure.

As someone who has written real military requirements documents in the past, let me whip up a basic one here for Irish Tactical Airlift:
- carrying troops, pallets and light vehicles within Europe in support of EU Battlegroup and Special Forces exercises - with Sweden (C-130), Finland (2x C-295 pending) and Norway (C-130) as likely partners.
- limited airlift support in the deployment phase due to range and payload limitations.
- deployed intra-theater tactical airlift support to deployed forces on international ops - think Liberia, Darfur, Afghanistan, etc., in conjuction with partner nations and a future European Airlift Group.  Rotational coverage in-theater among partners = Finn 295 for three months followed by IAC 295 for three months, etc.
- support to international humanitarian assistance/disaster relief ops.
*  above requirments dictate capabilities that include day/night austere field capability, day/night parachute delivery of bundles, pallets and personnel, LAPES delivery, NVG cockpit, and quick-install self-protection systems such as  infra-red jammer, chaff & flare dispensers, and cockpit armor - as found on Polish C-295's.

Cheers

Offline clan

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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2006, 02:22:56 pm »
If we do join Sweden, Norway and Finland in this EU battlegroup would it not be wise and better if we get the C130, at least then we would be a common aircraft as two of our partners which would help inter force operations and movements.
Who mentioned Jets

Offline pilatus

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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2006, 05:54:41 pm »
do the RAF have any of the hercs left for sale that they recently retired?lots of countries have been buying them!i think the price for the 3austria got was 18million sterling pounds!?that included overhaul!thats a pretty good deal!
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Offline The Blue Max

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 02:02:41 pm »
Good Points, Ive to agree in principal with most of them But personally I would not opt for the EADS CASA CN295 as swiss air force have commented that they can not hold any real modern armoured vechicle such as the MOWAG EAGLE MKIII/IV LATV (Light Armoured Tactical Vechicle) or the MOWAG PIRANHIA III APC (Armoured Personal Carrier) which i believe can both fit inside the LOCKHEED MARTIN C27 SPARTANS which personnally i would prefer to see Two enter service with 102sqn.

I know the commonability issue is a very relevant point but personally i would go operational capabilty side instead of perfect commomability side which i know is alot to desire from a small Air Corps, I just Googled the Spatans engine and they are made by a Roll Royce collaboration I believe they are the Roll Royce AE2100 which are the same engines which are fitted to the Lockeed Martin Hercules C130 series which in actual fact would give give us a form of fleet commonability when operating for example as part of the a European Air Group (EAG) or a European Battle group or UN RRF etc.. along with other nations Hercules if we were stuck for engine replacement or other parts we could utilises other nation stores on site instead having to have all our on site. So now thats food for taught.

(and yes these are my posts from an earlier thread but theres no point retyping it all again if the Army has its way it will be the C27J Spartan as it will give us a Airborne Tactical Transports that can actually transport the likes of vechicles softskin and armoured like the Nissians/LATV/APC/IFVs in service with the Army at home and aboard and it will give a credible asset instead of just one that carry small vechicles or pallets instead a real transport which would give us little benefit in real military logistics terms...
 
 
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Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 02:59:26 pm »
Blue,

Neither the C-27J nor the C-295 can transport armored vehicles such as the LAV III.  Land Rovers and HUMMV's are the limit.  Even then, they cannot carry them very far - increasing payload reduces range.  For instance, C-295 can carry an 8000 kg load about 1200 NM's, while the C-27J is very similar, a 10,000 kg Payload 1000 nm or a 6,000 kg Payload 2300 nm.  Basically within Europe.

Pilatus,

There are no more ex-RAF Hercs left on the market.  In fact, there are virtually no used Hercs left on the market anywhere, hence the RNLAF having to draw two hulks from the US boneyard for rebuild by Derco/Marshalls - and there are not many more left in the boneyard that can be practically rebuilt.  There are former USAF E-models coming available, such as those the US is gifting to Poland.  But they are truly used up.  The Poles will spend some $18 million each to make them operationally functional, including new wing boxes and a complete avionics upgrade, and even then will likely face serious problems and low availability.  Ditto the Austrian former RAF K models.  They received only a basic overhaul from Marshalls, hence the need for three just to have one available.  The RAF may be willing to sell-off 10 130J's to help fund another C-17, but Canada will probably snap them up as interims while they await delivery of at least 16 new J-30's from about 2011 - the soonest Lockheed can promise new deliveries given their full order book.

Here's another option for Ireland.  A-400's from an EU "pool".  Expect that as part of the emerging European Airlift Group (EAG), additional A-400's will be ordered by the EU to form a "pool" operated by member states under the EAG.  The concept originates from the single A-400 ordered by Luxembourg that was to be operated by Belgium, but is now under consideration as the first EAG "pool" aircraft.  The IAC could sign up to operate one or two EU A-400's, with bed down at Baldonnel (or Shannon), on a mix of national and EU taskings.  Training and maintenence would be under the auspices of the EAG A-400 program.  Other nations interested in operating pool A-400's include Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia and the Baltic states.  Given expected A-400 deliveries from about 2012, look at an interim solution of C-295's, possibly leased through the EU, to potential pool countries.  Impetus for this is really hot now after the tragic Slovak AF AN-24 crash over the weekend that killed 42 troops rotating out of Kosovo.  Everyone now realizes that all the old, unsafe and poorly performing transports in Europe have got to go and soon, coupled with the recognized requirement to vastly improve European airlift capabilities across the board.

The point here is to seek out original, practical solutions within the EU framework, since that is the basis of Irish defence policy now.  The IAC and the defence ministry should be engaging with the steadily evolving EU military organization to seek every advantage equitable to all parties.  Hopefully they are, but sometimes I think the IAC/MOD suffer from a dearth of imagination and a reluctance to dveiate from the comfortable status quo.  If they don't, Ireland will not be doing all it can to support EU military acitivites and the IAC will devolve into an airshow flying club.

Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 03:01:34 pm »
Here's another option for Ireland.  A-400's from an EU "pool".  Expect that as part of the emerging European Airlift Group (EAG), additional A-400's will be ordered by the EU to form a "pool" operated by member states under the EAG.  The concept originates from the single A-400 ordered by Luxembourg that was to be operated by Belgium, but is now under consideration as the first EAG "pool" aircraft.  The IAC could sign up to operate one or two EU A-400's, with bed down at Baldonnel (or Shannon), on a mix of national and EU taskings.  Training and maintenence would be under the auspices of the EAG A-400 program.  Other nations interested in operating pool A-400's include Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia and the Baltic states.  Given expected A-400 deliveries from about 2012, look at an interim solution of C-295's, possibly leased through the EU, to potential pool countries.  Impetus for this is really hot now after the tragic Slovak AF AN-24 crash over the weekend that killed 42 troops rotating out of Kosovo.  Everyone now realizes that all the old, unsafe and poorly performing transports in Europe have got to go and soon, coupled with the recognized requirement to vastly improve European airlift capabilities across the board.

The point here is to seek out original, practical solutions within the EU framework, since that is the basis of Irish defence policy now.  The IAC and the defence ministry should be engaging with the steadily evolving EU military organization to seek every advantage equitable to all parties.  Hopefully they are, but sometimes I think the IAC/MOD suffer from a dearth of imagination and a reluctance to dveiate from the comfortable status quo.  If they don't, Ireland will not be doing all it can to support EU military acitivites and the IAC will devolve into an airshow flying club.