Replacement for the Gulfstream?

[Silver]

No...not another MATS aircraft.

I was thinking more along the lines of another CASA 235 ...perhaps a dual role Maritime/Transport 235 - as used by the U.S. Coast Guard.

Incidentially, what aircraft is currently used for dual-engine training (now that the King Air has been 'decommissioned')? If its a CASA, then surely an extra twin-engined aircraft would make sense to replace the GIV....as it would free up the current CASA's for Maritime patrols.

[Machlooper]

There is a generic , twin sim at Bal now as well as the PC-9 one.
U am not sure if it's fully operational though.

[Silver]

Btw, when is the GIV due to be 'retired' i.e. it's "end of service life" as stated elsewhere?

[CK]

I was thinking the same thing Silver. Considering there are 2 CASAs to patrol an area 3 times the size of Ireland!

[heligaz]

I don't think there will be any money for new air corps aircraft. Once the G4's life is up i'm sure it will be disposed of.

I do see your point about the lack of aircraft for maritime patrols, which i think i read that it would take about 7 aircraft to properly patrol the country.

 

[Frank]

If they didn't buy an extra CASA during the boom you'll not get them buying one now.

All Defence Forces procurement has been cancelled or postponed, nothing is going to be replaced anywhere, the Air Corps budget is down by 12%, there's no money for anything.

Long story short, from what I read of the budget anyway, the GIV is being retired with no replacement of any description.

If they (the government that is) are going to car pool in cars with engines of less than 2 litres they, unfortunately, will not purchase new aircraft.

We could get some spare Harriers from the RAF, maybe they could donate them as part of their contribution to the bail out?

I'm sorry if I come across as being negative but that's just the way it is, while I'm a big supporter of the Air Corps and all that they do, it is the government that controls the purse strings and I'd say the purse is well guarded right now, there's not much going into it and there's bugger all coming out of it!

[thurian]

I see the Army has taken delivery this year of some Light Armoured Tactical Vehicles. I know all depts budgets have been cut in the latest budget but it's seems a little bizarre that an island nation on the extreme western seaboard of Europe would invest more than the bare minimum on land forces and equipment.Surely it would make more sense to spend the vast bulk of our defense budget on maritime protection whether that be aircraft or ships?

[Silver]

There is an article in today's Indo supplement arguing the case as to whether we need ANY Defence Forces?!

Now while I wouldn't go that far, I agree that we should spend more on the Air Corps and Navy than the Army.

Yes budgets have been cut all round.
However, when the GIV is 'disposed of' (i.e. sold off) then by using the funds of the sale to purchase a CASA (or similar) then that obviously wouldn't incur any NEW money having to be spent ...if you get what I mean?!


Incidentially, does anybody have any idea what the GIV could be worth?

[CK]

I read the article too. It raises a fair point but as an island nation we need a Navy and an Air Corp. 

[Fouga]

I believe if we were to purchase anything it should be UAV's, not the tiny ones we have like the Orbiter but something decent with a long loiter time for Observation/Top Cover/CIT and the perfect job would be the likes of the MQ9 Reaper.

[CK]

Chances are UAVs will be the replacements for the CASAs when ever they will be replaced.

[Machlooper]

Northrop Grumman’s RQ-4 Global Hawk UAV has established a dominant position in the High Altitude/ Long Endurance UAV market. While they are not cheap, they are uniquely capable. During Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF), the system flew only 5% of the US Air Force’s high altitude reconnaissance sorties, but accounted for more than 55% of the time-sensitive targeting imagery generated to support strike missions. The RQ-4 Global Hawk was also a leading contender in the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) UAV competition, and eventually won.

The Global Hawk Maritime Demonstration Program aims to use the proven RQ-4 Global Hawk airframe as a test bed for operational concepts and technologies that will eventually find their way into BAMS, and contribute valuable understanding to the new field of maritime surveillance with high-flying UAVs…

I doubt UAV's will replace the CASA's anytime soon. As you see above the U.S are only evaluating the concept this year ! Besides, I think people forget the primary role of the IAC CASA's is fisheries protection whereby photographic evidence is gathered on each vessel. I don't think a UAV will be able to stand up in court and say yes I shot that image and yes that's the boat. I'm sure eventually with tweaking of laws(*) and stuff it would be possible but do you honestly see a pilot sitting in Baldonnel sipping coffee flying a marpat in busy European airspace?? Doubt it very much, it's different in warzones and the like!
*= Don't know how it works with speed cameras though?

[Silver]

I agree Machlooper. We're probably at least a decade away from such a scenario...at best. All the more reason to use the 'Gulfstream funds' for purchasing another CASA...albeit a Transport/Maritime version.

Failing that the money should be spent on replacement of the Cessna's.
2 x Cessna Caravans perhaps?

[Frank]

They are retiring the GIV to keep the papers & public sweet and to save money.

They are not going to replace it, the money saved will go into a piece of motorway or a hospital somewhere.

They will not buy anything to replace it, even if the plane is so good that it can cure cancer!

[Fouga]

Article in Todays Indo: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-martin-biggest-losers-as-jet-scrapped-2458524.html

Taoiseach, Martin biggest losers as jet scrapped

By Louise Hogan


Monday December 13 2010

THE Government's biggest high-flyers -- the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs Minister -- will most miss the Gulfstream jet as it is consigned to the scrapheap.

Brian Cowen and Micheal Martin have clocked up the most air miles so far this year on board the €7,890-an-hour luxury Gulfstream IV.

Ministers' carbon footprints continued to mount this year despite a cost-cutting crackdown as the bill for flying the Gulfsteam jet rose to more than €1.3m as it travelled more than 79,400 air miles.

The Gulfstream is the most expensive of the ministerial aircraft costing just over €4,000 for fuel and maintenance for every hour in the air. This rises to €7,890 when extra essential costs such as the pilots are included.

The costly mode of transport was targeted for the scrapheap in last week's Budget. The Government announced it would not be repairing or replacing the Gulfstream jet, which was nearing the end of its lifespan.

However, it will continue to use the smaller business plane, the Learjet, which will be availed of by ministers travelling to Europe on government business.

Despite a major crackdown on the use of the Air Corps craft and helicopters to ferry ministers to meetings and openings, the total bill has risen to €1.7m for the 10 months to the end of October.

Commercial

In many cases departments have tried to source commercial flights where possible. The total bill for ministerial travel by jet and helicopter -- excluding commercial flights -- amounted to €2.38m last year.

Simon Coveney, the Fine Gael transport spokesman, said it cost hundreds of thousands of euro to simply maintain the 18-year-old Gulfstream jet.

He demanded "a new code of conduct" in relation to usage of all ministerial transport services with ministers being required to show a commercial airline could not meet their time schedule.

"We need a much more transparent and open system," he said.

Mr Cowen and Mr Martin between them -- on some occasions flying together -- spent the equivalent of almost five days in the air on board the Gulfstream so far this year. The most costly trip of the year proved their trip to the US for St Patrick's Day, with stops in Chicago and Washington, at a cost of €186,730.

The Lear jet was called upon by ministers on 39 occasions up until the end of October at a total flying cost of €390,137.

The Lear jet does have additional uses, as it is also used by the Air Corps in vital air ambulance missions. In 2008, it was used on 12 occasions to bring people to hospital from remote locations.

The transport figures do not include President Mary McAleese's use of the Air Corps service.

- Louise Hogan