Airlifter?

[clan]

One simple check and I found 8 C130'S for sale, from the A version, B,E and H. And not wild money either. And most of these were upgraded and have the type 3 wing, not new but certainly capable of a good few years work yet if looked after.

[The Blue Max]

On an official C27J site it quotes that for example that two Panhard M3 APCs can fit inside the this aircraft so here is some figures to put in an more irish perpective,

Information i have to hand from just consulting "Janes Tanks And Combat Vechicles" is that the Mowag Piranhia III and Panhard M3 APC is as follows:

     Mowag/Panhard M3 APCs

Weight:12000KG/5500Kg
Lenght:6.96m/4.45m
Height:1.95m/2.48m
Width:2.5m/2.4m

The Major difference being the weight and lenght but if you take in considersation that the C27 can hold two Panhard M3 APCs multiple one M3 by Two and this would just about be the same weight as one Mowag APC and size should allow you to fit one Mowag APC inside the the aircraft which would give us a tremandous capabilitie for overseas deployment and vechicles replacements etc and allow the transport of other essenstials such as the Artillerys 105mm L118 Howitsers and the two/three of the Armys future Light Armoured Tactical Vechicle (LATV) which could be deployed as part of a future Recce Forward Elements inconjunction with Air Corps assets to future Overseas deployments. (Similiar to use of Navys Le Niamh trip to Liberia transporting Recce Team)  

This displays the C27J the capability to deploy upto the Mowag Piranhia the size difference between Mowag APC and the LAV-III IFV is that its standard armanent is usually a 25mm cannon and majority of Irish APCs carry a smaller 12.7mm Mahine Gun in a turret thats is a reason why the LAVII wouldnt fit in the C27Js for a start compared to a Mowag Pirianha APC.  

[pym]

Quote

should allow you to fit one Mowag APC inside the the aircraft which would give us a tremandous capabilitie for overseas deployment and vechicles replaceme

I dont see how by any definition, the ability to transport one mowag per flight can be considered a tremendious capability. If you were talking about a helicopter being able to transport an AML (ala the MI26's in Liberia) - I'd see that as having real worth, as it could be dropped off just about anywhere.

These aircraft are too small, in my opinion if the Air Corps were seriously looking at transporting Mowag type vehicles, they can look at nothing smaller than a C-130 or A-400 - they'll only ever have one or two in service and 1-2 Spartans isnt enough for the capability they offer.

[Old Redeye]

Pym is correct.  C-27J does not have the range, payload & volume tocredibly support the deployment phase outside of Europe - but would be fine for supporting EU battlegoup and SF training exercises within Europe and providing in-theater airlift support to overseas missions and humanitarian ops.  

As for Hercs for sale, I'm dubious.  The Dutch, Canadians, Marshalls of Cambridge and others have had a wide net out for the last few years looking for same and come up dry - hence the DERCO boneyard deal.  I suspect the condition and history of those you came across is not adequate.  I could be wrong.

Again, try thinking collectively in terms of functioning as part of a larger European effort.  Of course Ireland could move a compnay plus task force + SF - it's likely battlegroup contribution - using the new NS vessel and one or two airlifters + commercial air, but the preferred, practical reality is moving as part of a larger Euro operation using collective assets.  By 2015 the EAG I described earlier will be able to draw on around 150 A400's, 5-6 C-17s, 50+ C-130J's and around 50 Airbus and Boeing MRTT's to satisfy EU airlift requirements.  Ireland should be be thinking of how to play equitably in this arena - either by operating as a component with 1-2 airlifters of some kind or by simply paying into the EAG pot - buying the service.

[clan]

Part of the conditions of being in an EU battlegroup is you have to be self deployable, therefore you cannot call on EAG in the first instances, if the EAG is even set up to respond to emergency movements in the first place. The 8 C130;s currently for sale, are old but certainly not past there sell by date if the info on the sales pitch is correct. Maybe Marshalls are looking in the wrong place or looking for real dirt cheap C130's. As these C130's look the business and two have had complete overhauls.

[Hess]

Anybody thought of just renting heavy lift a/c on a mission by mission basis? The U.N. and Red cross do it all the time.Outfits like Air Foyle have much more experance in operating heavy transporters than the Air Corps. The cost would be small when compaired with the price of a couple of C130s.Better spend the euros on something that bites! Well thats my two cents for what its worth.

[pilatus]

i know civilian companies could do the job but the defence forces want to be dependant!they want to be able to do the job themselves without looking for outside help!its just a matter of pride!

[Old Redeye]

Fair enough.  I've always firmly believed Hercs are a good option for the IAC, even used ones.  The Austrian solution is certainly worth examining.  

Just bear in mind that with 40-50 years old aircraft, there will be availability/reliability problems.  I would suggest a thorough overhaul and upgrade similar to what the South Africans got from Marshalls for their B-models gifted from the US - including a glass cockpit and avionics, Thales Topdeck in that case, to eliminate the navigator and make them compliant with international ATC requirements.   They would also need a new wingbox and probably other work as well - plumbing, piping and wiring, new cargo handling equipment, self-protection IR jammers and chaff/flare kits, etc.  And a reliable source of spares - another headache with old Hercs these days - Poland is spending about $19 million each on their US-gifted E-models for all this. Any old Hercs will need a lot of constant work - think of an old Triumph motorcycle - no modern computer based moniotring systems.   Doesn't mean it won't work.  Consider what you get for what you pay for balanced with what you need it to do.  

* $25M for a new C-295, more for a C-27J; limited range and payload, good for 20+ years
* $25-30M each for an elderly reburbished 130; 2-3 required to have one available - good for about 10 years, not much longer
* $65M for a new C-130J-30, with no delivery before about 2011; very reliable and capable, good for 20-30 years
* $90M to buy a new A400, not available before about 2013 or later; will be a great aircraft, may be ways to reduce procurement, operating and maitenance costs through EU partnerships - EAG, etc. - good for 20-30 years.

There are probably other options out there as well, IL76 for instance, or economical and flexible jet combis like the B-737QC or even the A-319/320 suggested by GOC.

[pilatus]

if the raf are getting rid of their j model hercs the air corps should get a deposit in there to make sure they could get a few!because as soon as these are on the market they will be gone!

[Old Redeye]

1-2 RAF J's would indeed be sweet.  Built in 96, with very low hours, they've only really been operational since about 99. Easy training and logistics.

Like most good deals, there's a catch.  While the RAF reportedly may offer 10 standard "short" J's for sale or lease as a way to fund an additional C-17, they have indicated a preference to keep all ten together in one package - clearly aimed at Canada, which desperately needs to replace 19 very old E's, of which only a handful are operational at any one time.  Canada will likely order 16 new J's in the next few months, but because of a full current order book, Lockheed cannot promise deliveries before 2010-11.

That said, Canada may not take them for any number of contractual variables with Lockheed over new J's, etc.  If not, and if the RAF persists with the plan to put 10 on the block, Ireland will have a strong case for 2, in conjnction with another Euro nation, such as Norway, taking the other 8. Then again, Germany may be intersted in all 10 to bridge the gap on international missions - Afghanistan - from 40 year-old C-160D Transalls, with readiness rates = Canada's E-Hercs, until A-400 becomes fully operational in about 2015.

Lets hope the IAC and the MOD are in touch with their counterparts in the UK on this.

[Old Redeye]

Hess,

In response to your good question about leasing commercial airlift capability - Canada and Australia both recently completed independent studies on their uses of same for ops over the past few years or so and extrapolated out to current and possible future international ops.  Both concluded they were spending more money over time for commercial capability than if they just obtained and operated their own.

Not that commerical leasing is neceessarilly bad, particularly given Ireland's realtively limited requirements and the multi-national nature of Irish international ops.  If I were a betting man, given what I discern about official Irish defence thinking, I'd have to conclude commericial airlift leasing, and the new NS multi-purpose ship, is what this government will rely on for the strategic deployment phase of international ops.  

That would not preclude obtaining a small airlifter, C-295 or even a new CN-235-300, to support EU battlegroup and SF training exercises within Europe and to provide in-theater airlift/medevac support to a deployed force if need be.  Simply put, they could hedge their bets by selecting the least painful option, a single small airlifter, and put the rest of teh kitty against "things that bite", like the additional LAVIII's ordered this week, and the impending order for new light armored vehicles.

[Old Redeye]

Clan et al,

Check out these shots of the Austrian Hercs - former RAF K's overhauled by Marshalls of Cambridge.  Overhauled, not upgraded. Strictly fixed-up K's as opposed to South Africa's upgraded B's. Check out the steam gauge cockpit.  The back-end is all original as well.  Still functional though, and way better than anything the IAC has now.

[Old Redeye]

Cockpit shot of Austrian K

[Fouga23]

I wouldn't buy a second hand US herc without at least a new wingbox. Look at what happened to the firefighting ones in the US

[pilatus]

remind me again please!what are LAVIIIs?that name is so familiar!?